Going Viral with Calligrapher, Sylvia Wong

Laura Edralin (00:04) Welcome to the Life of Letters, a podcast where we explore the artistry, history and future of calligraphy, penmanship, handwriting and lettering. I'm your host, Laura Edrelin, a calligrapher based in London with a forgotten degree in archaeology and a curiosity for the stories behind the letters and beneath the ink. Through conversations with historians, artists, societies and stationary experts, I want to discover which of the forgotten letters Who are those pioneers of the pen and journey the world to join the dots between tradition and modern creativity? Whether you're a seasoned calligrapher, a lover of beautiful handwriting, or simply someone fascinated by the evolution of letters, type and the written word, it's great to have you with me. So grab a cuppa, perhaps your favourite pen, settle in And let's dive into the life of letters. Laura Edralin (00:58) I am delighted to be speaking with Sylvia Wong in today's episode. Sylvia is a Toronto based calligraphy artist known for creating memorable high touch experiences with luxury brands at events and through personalized gifting. Her signature passion project, the Just Married Jacket, and I should probably say hashtag the Just Married Jacket, transformed a single wedding day idea into a viral tradition, bringing together a community of brides around the world. By day, Sylvia is also the director of digital marketing at an agency, bringing her blend of creative artistry and strategic expertise to every project she undertakes. Sylvia's work bridges the gap between art and marketing, crafting moments that connect brands to audiences in truly meaningful ways. I love that. Sylvia, a huge welcome to the Life of Letters podcast and thank you so much for being here all the way, far away from me. It's lovely that we can connect. Sylvia (01:57) Thank you so much. Thank you so much and thanks for creating this podcast. I'm so excited when all the episodes come out to hear how, I don't know, calligraphy connects us all, all in the different pockets of the world. Laura Edralin (02:11) Exactly, exactly that. is my dream that it just sort of brings us all slightly closer together wherever we are in the world. So yeah, I'm delighted to have you. Can you tell us first of all a little bit about your journey into calligraphy? Where did it all start for you? Sylvia (02:28) Yeah, I think my journey into calligraphy really started in, I guess a personal way, but in a way I say that this is where a lot of people end up starting in calligraphy. It was because I was getting married. And there's something about getting married where I don't know if it was just me, but I kind of went in this mode where I was like, I have to do something, I have to learn a skill, I have to make something for my wedding. So I started learning calligraphy and it was your basic, let's figure out, brush calligraphy, let's buy the Tombow Dual brush pens and get started and see where this goes. I was torturing myself trying to like watch videos online and do it a couple hours each day without guidance of anyone. And I would say didn't start in the best way, but my goal was to make something for my wedding. I think it was quite a silly goal because we had a city hall wedding that was only eight people in attendance. So I did not need RSVPs, I did not need envelopes, I didn't need signage, place cards, I didn't actually need anything, which is why I ended up going down the route of making a jacket for myself. That jacket was the one that I created, leather jacket that says Just Married on the back of it, and at the time there wasn't much in the market and it felt like a really unique idea in the wedding space, so when I created it, I wore it for my wedding and I didn't have anything to do with it after. Like it was, it was not going to be something I wore on a daily basis. So I decided to post it on a local barter site. And here in Toronto, there was this really great trading site in which you could just trade for anything that was like, you know, equal value if you just kind of had the negotiation around it. And the funny thing about, I don't know, maybe it's like a human thing that you turn things into currency. So the currency started to become, tokens for like our subway system or cans of beer and alcohol. So like you couldn't use like actual currency but you could trade. So I posted my jacket on this trading site and I said does anyone want to trade this for a bottle of red wine? And I saw the replies start to come in where people were like my wedding is this week, my wedding is this month, my wedding is like a few months down the line. And I thought rather than trade it to one person, I don't trust anyone to kind of run the project ongoing, I decided to just rent it out every week for a bottle of red wine. So in a sense that's how like, I don't know, it snowballed itself, but my one starting project in calligraphy, that was my one thing that I put out in the world, turned into this community project that did start getting picked up because it was a really catchy idea, like the wedding industry is very expensive and people wanted a sense of renting something that didn't cost them but also connected them to a local community. So once that press started happening, I know this story keeps going and going, it's how I feel about the jacket, it just keeps going and going. It's reached over 200 brides at this point. So I want to say 250, it's bad that I've like lost track at this point... Laura Edralin (05:34) No, it's fascinating. Sylvia (05:46) ... but it's been to so many local brides that once it was starting to get that press, first locally and then in the Huffington Post, Condé Nast Bride Magazine did like a viral video with us, the first 25 brides. Around the world, people started asking about, can I be a part of this project? But I had very strict rules. You could only borrow it from Wednesday to Tuesday and it had to be back and you had to pick up and drop off and leave a bottle of wine. And so as I started to consider how I could really expand the project. A couple of calligraphers from London and New York City approached me and said, can we have chapters of the project? So now the project is in 13 chapters around the world. So there's, yeah, like, and they're kind of running in the same format, you know, across like New York, London, Hong Kong, Washington, Chicago, Oahu, Montreal, Vancouver, et cetera. Laura Edralin (06:28) Wow. Sylvia (06:46) It's run in the exact same format where everyone has to like rent it out just for a week for a bottle of red wine just to keep the format the same. But that's, that's like my marketing brain, you know, we've got to keep it consistent. Laura Edralin (06:54) That's great. So when you say chapters, do you mean that calligraphers say a calligrapher in Hong Kong or London has recreated what you've made on a leather jacket and done the same thing? So it's like a licensing fee almost or not a fee. I mean, you don't get the red wine that they get, but you're part of the project, right? Yeah. Oh, that's amazing. Sylvia (07:09) Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And essentially like in creating those chapters, was like a question of, you know, those first calligraphers, Katie and Ellen, they helped me with like how to form that expansion of it in which I was like, I don't need anything from it, right? Like in the first place running this project, initially a lot of people would say, you know, why don't you just make the jacket in all sizes, extra small, small, medium, large, extra large, and then rent it out. And why don't you do it for money? And it was never about that. So I think in expanding the project, like the essence that I wanted to keep was everyone was also doing it just for wine so that the essence of it was like the fun and the aspect of community and just doing something that's like a little bit more giving. it's been, I mean, on the very tactical side, it's been an amazing marketing tool, but all the other chapters, like they do it in their own style, right? They're not going to copy my first project that I ever did in calligraphy. Laura Edralin (08:23) Does it bring back loads of memories when you see it or see it being worn and I guess like brides send photos and share photos and it's like this signature detail in the wedding, right? Sylvia (08:33) Yeah, yeah, I think it's like, interesting thing about like the virality of it is everyone's wedding is where they are, maybe the first event ever that they have where they hire a professional photographer. It's highly documented, everyone that matters in their life is there. So it's a little bit of a catchy thing where, you you throw on a leather jacket and people are like, what the heck is that? So the story gets told at every single one. So it's been amazing. And the diversity of weddings it's been to has been incredible too. Laura Edralin (09:03) That's so great. That's so great. And so you've got all these different communities, basically around the world who connect to you over this jacket. But you're also, you are a designer, you're an artist, but you also teach right as well. Sylvia (09:04) Mm-hmm. Yes, I do amongst all these things, early on, people would just kind of say, where did you learn calligraphy? How did you do it? And I was like, don't do it like me. Do it properly. Have somebody that teaches you and guides you through it. So I decided to teach. I teach modern brush calligraphy. And even the way that I learned, which was like online, trying to struggle through things myself, I really found that when I was starting to actually teach people in person. There are really small things around like, you know, the angle of your paper. I'm certain that everyone has like, you know, it doesn't sit like perpendicular to your body. There's how you hold a pen is like a question that people immediately ask as soon as they pick one up is like, do I hold it normal or like, is there a way to hold it? And these like little adjustments just have to happen in person. So I really found that in my first couple of years, like once I was doing these workshops in Toronto locally, it was, so much stronger of a way to teach that is also in alignment with building a community, meeting like-minded people. Because the type of person that's going to come to a local calligraphy workshop is, you know, they're really wanting a place and a time that they can focus. I think a lot of the time I've had people come back a second time and I've said to them, you know, I'm teaching the same curriculum, right? You just did this already and it's same worksheets and everything. And they're like, I will not sit at home and do this myself. I need someone to be like staring at me and telling me what to do next. So to carve out the time, I simply have to like be in a workshop. So. Laura Edralin (10:52) It's so true, isn't it? What's nice and very reassuring as a fellow calligraphy teacher is that everything you've just said, I can totally resonate with. It's exactly the same. Whoever you are, wherever you're teaching it, it's that idea that there are these, you know, adjustments that can be made, which is really difficult to get across if you're learning just on a YouTube video or just through a book or just, you know, there's so many lovely resources out there, but actually... Sylvia (10:54) Yeah. Laura Edralin (11:21) ...going and being with a teacher in your space, with your guidance. sometimes it's just that one thing, That actually I can see that you're, yeah, and then you get into bad habits or something. Sylvia (11:29) Yeah, you skip a million steps, right? You skip a million steps. Yes, yes, yes. One of my, like, I think it's really important if you are a workshop teacher that you're also a really avid workshop goer in all different aspects. Like, I've taken, like, leather making. Like, yesterday I was at a rhinestone workshop that my friend did. I've taken embroidery workshops... Laura Edralin (11:51) I saw! Sylvia (11:58) ...and I just want to be a student and see how things can be absorbed and take things in in different formats. But I was once taught by Paul Antonio, amazing workshop, very intense. My teaching is very, very casual. So a very intense workshop. But one thing that he said was, if you're going and you're doing a row of drills, don't keep making the same mistake. You have to stop for a moment and look at the stroke that you just did and if you did it incorrectly, don't go do it again all the way down the road. And like, I think a lot of us were shook. were like, Whoa, whoops. Like we aren't just making the same mistake all the way across. Right? So it's little things like that, that sometimes you need just like a person to stop you and be like, he said, think about like why we're doing the drills here. Laura Edralin (12:35) Yeah. Yeah. And I guess going back to the jacket, if you were to do that again, it would look entirely different, right? Because your style, your practice, everything, how long ago was that that you did the jacket? Sylvia (12:51) For sure, yeah. 2016, so it was like eight years ago. Yeah, so like style develops so quickly, right? Like, and you know, after that first workshop or whatever you do, like you being a teacher as well, you have to have some baseline of a guide and mine is like slightly italic, but very basic so that people aren't learning to stylize right from the start. So it's not so overwhelming. Laura Edralin (12:59) Okay. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Are there styles that you'd love to learn that you've not kind of tackled yet? Sylvia (13:26) I treat calligraphy so much as a medium for everything. Like I'm very much by day being a digital marketer and I think it's obvious from like the story and like how I fit into this community. In small ways I'm like, I don't go down the route of like traditional calligraphy and then getting really, really into the tools and the depth of it, which is, you know, there's so many people that do and there's the I Ampeth path of things and the Master Penman path. So it's to say that I don't have more to learn about it. Like I learn more in like a diversity of like mediums and everything and treat my practice of going down the medium of like modern calligraphy more in different surfaces way. I think that's very like, you know, the event calligraphers, we all go down the path of like knowing how to letter on different surfaces rather than learning different styles, which is... Laura Edralin (14:21) Yeah. Sylvia (14:22) ...it makes it very applicable to the clients that we have. So that's like the aspect of calligraphy where, you know, all of, it's all the calligraphers that sit in the high-end luxury stores and do the PR events and everything. Clients are just kind of like, hey, look at this, can you letter on it? Like, hey, look at this, can you letter on it? Hey, look at this, hey, look at this, can you letter on it? And so it's, the expansion that we have goes more towards like, okay, now we have to learn how to like test on mediums in which like, Laura Edralin (14:27) Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Sylvia (14:52) It might be a polyurethane or a leather or something and are we able to emboss or write with a paint pen or whatever, you know? Yeah. Laura Edralin (14:59) Yeah, I love that because you do a lot of engraving, right? And that's like a whole world that people keep saying to me, you're gonna get one of, you get this on your Christmas list, the drill, get it, get it. And I'm like, it's just a whole nother world of calligraphy. It's such a, I mean, it can open you up into loads of projects, right? But has there been a particular project, whether it's engraving or calligraphy or brand that you've worked with that... Sylvia (15:04) Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It is. Yeah. Laura Edralin (15:28) You just think, wow, I can't believe I got to do that. so many. Sylvia (15:33) This goes back to, there was one that I did years and years ago that was for Tetley tea. And the reason I always think of that one is because when the client came to me, they were like, first and foremost, think they wanted like either, it was a wild number, like 500 or something teacups, lettered with, they wanted like words that were a bit like pejorative descriptors for, I wanna say women, you know? So they were like, sensitive, shy, like quiet, you know? And so I was meant to letter on those and then they gave me the context of the project, which was it was a PR event in which they were doing a pop-up and guests would come in, choose a teacup that had like a pejorative term that kind of hit a nerve with them, and then they could take it to a rage room and smash it. Laura Edralin (16:29) I did not see that coming. Sylvia (16:32) And the reason it comes up in my mind is because so often if you are a calligrapher or an artist that does a lot of online posting of content, there is a constant question of people saying like, what pen is that? And I think it turns out to be a frustrating repeated question for artists because like, our answer could just be like, here's what the pen is. But it's never that simple, right? It's like, well, you know, I had to test like these different things. And the reason I chose this pen was because of this. And I think this Tetley project almost can summarize like the complication of having to explain that. Because when you say, what pen did you use for that Tetley cup? I wasn't going for a permanence. I did not need it to be dishwasher safe. It also didn't need to be food safe. And those are always questions that do have to come up when a client says, like, can you do lettering or engraving on this kind of cup or this food item or a ceramic or whatever? And when you start explaining, like, the depth of, what you're considering, like, is it food safe? Recently, I to deal with is it microwave safe? All right. So, like, it's like, I was like, well, you guys want gold, but you can't microwave metal, you know that, Like, it turns into this, like, really long winded thing where as the experts, you're like, Laura Edralin (17:37) Yeah. Sylvia (17:50) ...man, like there's now like, exactly. So the what pen is it is like, yes, I could just tell you, but often it's such a contextless question that you're kind of like, but do you have the same paper as me when you're asking what pen I'm using? if it's not the same paper, like the answer can be the answer, but it doesn't apply. Laura Edralin (17:52) There's not just a quick answer, is there? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's totally irrelevant because it's not going to get the same result. Sylvia (18:15) Yeah. So I, I'm long winded, but like, think, you know, talking with a client, you have to kind of really make them understand, like, we have to know what the end result is that you want from it. and, and, you know, do you care if it like rubs off of it? Do it going to literally be smashed to smithereens? Yeah. Laura Edralin (18:35) Yeah, absolutely. My god, it's fascinating, isn't it? And you've worked with, you know, some incredible brands out there and probably done some just amazing projects with all sorts of different surfaces and... Sylvia (18:49) It's very cool because in that like brand pop-up event experiential space, every brand is looking for like the next catchy thing. They're looking for that thing that grabs attention or makes it memorable. so again, you're like that medium for it, which means that if you do go down the route of being an event calligrapher or one who's working with brands, like you have to understand that what the brand wants from you, they care almost very little about the end result of it. They care about the interaction that you have in the process of getting there. So the big sell is like, yeah, like you might not be allowed to be introverted in those situations. You've got to interact and make people remember that interaction. Yeah. Laura Edralin (19:27) Yeah. Yeah. And make it happen, right? We just want to see that, you know, you can pull this off. We want it on this particular item or whatever. Have you, what, I mean, this is a bit, I'm pulling this out of thin air, but I just suddenly wondered whether you've worked on anything that is of real high value. Cause that's always a really scary idea to me that you've got to do something, not only live in front of people, but it is very expensive. Sylvia (19:43) Yeah. Yes. Okay, so frankly, I reject a lot of the things that I believe should go to very traditional calligraphers, which are when people have a book or a diploma or a document that they want something on, because I always feel like those are very, very irreplaceable. So I reject a lot of those ones. In the realm of like brands and everything, I've done expensive perfume bottles, like...alcohol, like liquor bottles that are over $500. And so like you don't get a second chance with engraving because if you kind of slide off, like an engraving is like, it takes away the material, right? So, yeah, mistakes are for good. But in, in cases that the brand is sponsoring anything, like where they pay and you do it, you're kind of covered because they're willing to damage things out. But in the cases of a client buying you something and you're customizing, Laura Edralin (20:39) Yeah. Sylvia (20:57) I've dropped a $500 bottle of scotch and had to rebuy it myself. So I had to really enjoy that bottle myself after, but that I don't think I would have bought myself, but treat it like a treat. Yeah. Laura Edralin (21:10) yeah, I know. And I guess your engraving just becomes really, really, really good after things like that happen, But do you get nervous? Yeah. Sylvia (21:17) Yeah, you really make sure you put your guidelines, you know. Do I get nervous like in front of people and on site? I mean, I mean, sometimes like I think you get used to it over time and you get used to the conversations. I get starstruck by people's like, yeah, so like that's that's an area where I'm like, kind of like temper my nerves a little bit, but. Laura Edralin (21:25) Yeah, doing the live calligraphy. Do you? Sylvia (21:45) Yeah, you kind of get used to almost like the adrenaline of like being in that space and going quickly. And sometimes like the situations that are a bit more like nerve wracking have to do more with numbers that are demanding of you. conversations with clients always have to go in the direction of like being practical about how many pieces you can finish in the event allotted time. Yeah. Laura Edralin (21:50) Yeah, yeah. God, there's so much to think about, right? You're not only not damaging something, having a good conversation, someone hugely famous walking up to you and watching you as you do it. Sylvia (22:15) There is a lot. Exactly. There's a lot of like pre-preparation involved in it. And I think now, at least in Toronto, being like a big hub and flagship for a lot of like brands and companies here in Canada, we're doing a lot more like multi-artist events. So a lot of artists here are really making sure that like when you say, you know, the maximum I can do is maybe like 20 names on this given surface per hour. If you exceed that, you've got to have like a second artist, an assistant, like some kind of format to kind of you know, make that happen faster. Laura Edralin (22:56) Yeah, I love that. There's always ways, right? And it's just making sure the clients are aware of what those are. So in terms of balance, obviously you've got the calligraphy business, which is absolutely massive. And obviously the viral project that has kind of whipped you into all sorts of places around the world, but also the design agency work, which I presume takes up a huge amount of time as well. Sylvia (22:57) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, big on the communication right at the start. Laura Edralin (23:23) How do you balance all of this happening at the same time? Sylvia (23:27) Yeah. I've always had a full-time job as, as I've run my calligraphy business and I, I've been really lucky to have it, boom in the, in the last eight years, like eight years is about the amount of time I've been in business. and I would say that a huge part of being able to have that balance is because I have a great boss, the CEO of my company, George, if you're listening, thank you. He is really open to actually knowing about my business and being very supportive of it, which means that I do take a lot of days off in December when it's very busy during holiday season. Being in an agency, we are a marketing agency, I do personally manage a team at the agency too. I'm fairly strict about myself and my team making sure we clock our hours. So one thing about agency is like anyone you ask that's in one is like, it's so annoying. You do have to you know, clock your time and make sure you allocate it to clients and you've got like billable hours and everything. That keeps a good balance for me in that I've got my work time and I've got my calligraphy time and I'm pretty clear about like that time blocking in my flexible work schedule. All that said, I think usually the people's next question is like, will I ever quit my full-time job? I've been a full-time creative before and I almost like the privilege that having a full-time job gives. It's huge in that when I was just talking previously about, you know, multiple artists at gigs, a lot of the artists here in Toronto, it's an expensive place to live. They have their full-time jobs. And then we almost have a network in ourselves where we're like, we're the artists with full-time jobs. So it keeps us keeping our rates high as well. And in the calligraphy world, which I think is like a privilege for us because we have also that willingness to lose a job to somebody else who will price lower. So I don't know. think it's good thing. It's something that keeps us, again, like speaking broadly on behalf of artists who have full-time jobs, it keeps you in a position of feeling like you can maintain your rates and that if you lose the job in that particular one, you probably didn't have time for it anyway. Because realistically, Laura Edralin (25:28) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but you've also got the security as well, haven't you, of the agency work. So it's not solely, you know, like, if I don't get this job with this client, you know, or I've got to negotiate or I've got to do this, that's even more work, right? Sylvia (25:57) Yeah. Yeah. It's a huge thing. Pricing is such a huge topic of conversation for artists and creatives because it's not really taught and then it's also really, it's really devalued, right? And it's quick for people to say, you know, I love doing it. I'm so passionate about it. And then as soon as someone says, will you do it for less? Will you do it for free? Will you take on this project? The undervaluing of that is just like, it's rampant, kind of perpetuates the starving artist element of it when brands are willing to pave really well. I think the balance really strikes from a place where once you know that your full-time job is keeping you secure, you are allowed to essentially say what your rate is and keep it where it is. I obviously have very busy like holiday seasons, but I'd say how do I strike a balance? Laura Edralin (26:42) Yeah. Sylvia (27:03) I only really do like two events per month on an average other month and then teach one workshop and then like do a few commissions. So it doesn't end up being that much, I say. Yeah. Laura Edralin (27:05) That's great. Yeah, well you and you've worked that out over the years, right? So you've got this balance down. You've got a great boss. Shout out to George and you know, you've got your team. And so all of these lovely elements create this great, hopefully balanced lifestyle for you. So that's brilliant. And it's nice to know that you can do both. You know, I think you're a brilliant example for people who are going, you know, can I do this? Can I do that? Or could I do both? You know, all those questions that come in and spiral in our minds of Sylvia (27:39) Yeah. Laura Edralin (27:42) you know, what format of working should I do and the pricing conversations, I mean, that's almost everywhere. And I know lots of different communities of calligraphers, it's just come up recently in some of our London calligraphy kind of groups and conversations. And yeah, and that is the second somebody goes really low, it means the whole kind of market rate is sort of damaged because all those people who were charging the right. Sylvia (27:48) Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And I think new artists coming into the business are almost wanting to charge less because they don't feel like they're as qualified as the rest. then coming from the experienced calligraphers, there's this sense of, please do charge equally as much as we do because you're able to and the budgets are there. I don't know, pricing gets to be this thing that's very emotional. Laura Edralin (28:36) Mm-hmm. Sylvia (28:37) it becomes fear-based at times too because you know worry that if you don't get the job there might not be another one and so like amongst other things that like i i teach the the in-person workshops but from from doing all of this work like i i have an online course with jodie who's a calligrapher in montreal that's called luxury lettering that really helps people get into the mindset of like what calligraphy looks like when you're offering it to... Laura Edralin (28:44) Yeah, that's so true. Sylvia (29:04) ...brands and retailers rather than, you know, person to person. Like if you really just start with like offering your services to a friend, like what does it look like when you have to charge for real and do all the business of contracts and invoicing and all of that. Laura Edralin (29:18) I love that. So you've got courses for people who've never done any calligraphy, so beginners, but you've also got a course for those who may be good at calligraphy or moving on from being good at calligraphy to kind of, I'm ready to maybe start charging or I'm in that awkward position of my friends getting married and they're happy to pay me something, but I feel like I don't know what to charge and that's brilliant. Sylvia (29:29) Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Laura Edralin (29:45) Do you have any sort of tips in terms of...how people should get into calligraphy. Obviously we pointed out the fact that YouTube is a great resource, but actually in-person workshops are much better in terms of really sustaining that practice and getting those good kind of habits down. Anything else in terms of beginners? Sylvia (29:58) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think for beginners, like the other element of like just like the being in person and getting everything set up is if you go to a workshop, you are usually going home with all of the tools that you need. And so you get to like, even if it feels like, God, I have to spend a hundred dollars and a few hours and whatever, you do skip that phase of racking up all these tools that you might not like, you might not use and having all that clutter in your, you know, in your stationary. So I find that like, when I'm even attending workshops, I'm like, you know, if it's like an embroidery, when you've got the needle you need, you've got the fabrics, a few different threads, and you skip the having to buy every color of every thread because it's all provided for you. So I think like that's another pro for the way to get started is it really expedites you on the direction you could possibly go. Laura Edralin (30:47) That's a great tip. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, getting the right kit for sure. People often message me and be like, I've got this pen and I'm not getting the right, you know, the thickness is too much. It's often the two thicker pens. In terms of moving into calligraphy as a business and you said sort of luxury, working with luxury brands, what's your kind of first tip that you might share as part of the course? Sylvia (31:04) Yeah, because we have this course, I think so many people will message and say, like, what's the first step? Like, I'm excited to get started. And I think the majority of people go down the same route in their minds. They say, should I put together a portfolio and then go to stores and drop it off? Like, is that the way to do it? And the answer is no. So I think people, they've got this direction, I think, that they should go. And they're like, is this correct? I, and I'm often saying like, it's not at all. simply because when you are working with brands, it's often that the retailer itself doesn't make the decision. They're just getting the person sent to the store. And so, when the decision's being made, maybe by the head office that might be in New York city might be in, I don't know, in London, like it could be anywhere in the world. the, the act of actually like, putting that together and then putting it in the wrong hands is kind of like, you know, dropping off your resume to a sales associate. They might just toss it out, right? So in terms of actually getting started, if you're interested in working with brands and PR is really starting to connect to PR agencies, activation type agencies. So that's the type of marketing it is, is like experiential marketing. So having these terms in your tool belt kind of help you go in the direction of like, who am I actually approaching because it might be an agency rather than the brand even. So yeah, my first step usually is like take a look at your portfolio whether it's your you consider your Instagram or your website and start to post pictures of yourself. Like if your whole thing is all catered towards your peers and we are very guilty of this as calligraphers and artists posting your work, posting your work, posting your work. Laura Edralin (32:49) Mm-hmm. I think that's great. Sylvia (33:14) If you don't show who you are and your personality, all you have there is like, you know, samples of maybe like practice work rather than the potential of a finished project. Laura Edralin (33:20) Yeah. And actually, looking at your Instagram is such a great example. And actually, probably even just doing that, right? Looking at other people who are doing those things. But your Instagram is so well packaged in terms of, you know, your highlights are really clear. You've got lovely, consistent. mean, you know, you've got the added bonus of being a marketing eye and all of the digital side of it. Sylvia (33:40) Thank you. Laura Edralin (33:49) Even without that, think there's so much to be learned from seeing how other people are doing it and just understanding that you can create a highlight and add those logos and share that you've done this work and you've done that. yeah. Sylvia (33:55) Yeah. Yeah. You have to consider that your audience is not another calligrapher. It's like, if you're going to be marketing yourself towards brand, you're, you're not making content that is telling other calligraphers, you know, what pen this is, what, what ink you're excited about. And unfortunately, it's kind of connected to my initial answer of like, I don't go deep down the route of like, you know, the tools that I'm using or the processes or the practice. It's, it's very much showing clients how the, work is applicable and how it translates to something that you makes a connection with their audience. Laura Edralin (34:36) Yeah, beautiful. And finally, I was just going to wrap it up with a maybe a big question. But you blend these two kinds of worlds with the kind of digital agency and the work that you do there. But where do you feel like the future of calligraphy and engraving as well as all that sort of hands on work and creative side of calligraphy sits with a kind of digital world? Is there anything that you'd love to see or create next? So many questions I've got in one but pick what you want out of that. Sylvia (35:09) Yes, I think being in particularly a digital marketing agency, it means that every conference we go to, every conversation we have clients, everything, everything, everything is AI. And we're stuck in this conversation of talking about AI and I think, you know, some artists are talking about it's bad, bad for art, you know, it's like we're going in this direction in which, you know, there's robots trying to do art versus doing the grunt work that we want it to do. And I think the further that we swing towards a digital world, a AI world, a disconnected world, what was meant to be something that connected us all as people is making us even further disconnected. As a result of this massive pendulum swing, think truly what people crave is not that constant connection of their phone, the constant tethering to their work and the constant bombardment, doom-strolling, blah blah blah blah blah. Being all the way on that side, people actually crave the in-person. They're craving the feeling of doing things, the satisfaction of completing something in a workshop. I'm looking at my completed rhinestone thing right now, you know? They want to make something, they want to do something, they want to connect to people. So I think in the same way that we went from writing to the printing press, the printing press was not going to eliminate people writing or loving that as a hobby. The stationary world is going really strong. People are still investing in very expensive fountain pens and getting notebook systems and everything. So I think what that looks like is, at least in the experiential world, which is the world of calligraphy with brands, it's looking like more and more experiences and that's where they're investing their money rather than saying, you know, let's keep these digital ads going. They want to make a moment that makes people feel special when they interact with their brand. And I think that translates culturally. Like people just want to connect and that's how we're wired. Laura Edralin (37:18) I love it. It's like you've just sort of drawn a little bow together and packaged this up so beautifully. What a lovely sentiment to end on as well. I just think that's such a idea and hopefully inspires people. Sylvia (37:33) Please let me tell you one story actually. Let me tell you one story connected to it, not to unwrap the wrapped up, but yeah, there was a brand that myself and a bunch of calligraphers worked with a couple of holidays ago. And the way that they wanted to do the activation was there would be a calligrapher in every store, and then we would be alongside the calligraphy robot. And so we were told this from the start, we, you know, for the volume that might be coming at us, like, we would do it, but there would also be the robot to kind of do the, you know, extra numbers of them just to get them done. So it was funny and weird. And then we were, you know, messaging each other and being like, okay, like they told us the robot's going to be there. We all actually like showed up on those days and many of us, robot didn't show up. Like mine, I was joking around. I'm like, hey, robot didn't show up for work, you know? But for a few people, the robot did show up and it was a robot that held the, you know, the paint pens, the gold paint pens, it held the paint pens and it went along. And what we ended up hearing from the people who did see the robot operate and those who were actually operating it was, you know how you have to pump a paint pen? The robot doesn't know how to do that. So it suddenly stopped and then you'd have to either start again or pump it and put it back and do it again. Sylvia (38:58) So that was two holidays ago and as of this holiday season, I have heard from someone that that company went under. Laura Edralin (39:05) Okay...robots are out. At least for the short term. Sylvia (39:07) I and they also said, yeah, and they also said, you know, the robot took 10 minutes to do it and we're like, what name in paint pen? So it was, it was a long process and it's like, it's, hard to replicate, you know, the experience of it. And I think there are some stores that have the embossing machine, engraving machine, whatever in store, but the experience it gives is like, put it in the machine, not, hey, you know, connecting with a person and a brand, you know? So. Laura Edralin (39:16) Yeah. I think that's so interesting and kind of resonates with what I say to a lot of students in workshops who get really upset because their calligraphy is wobbling or there's little tiny inconsistencies in their work. know calligraphy is all about consistency and you're trying to make it look really, really beautiful and succinct style and all of that. But what I really want to encourage them is to understand how unique it is. And you're capturing a very mindful moment, a very kind of, it's like a time capture, it's a little snapshot of you delivering, creating, crafting something in that moment. And if I was to write the same word in the same day even across different months, it would have lots of tiny micro differences in it. Yes, I mean, I say micro, they'll probably be quite macro actually, quite major differences, but you know, however hard you try to replicate it, will be, you you breathe differently, you, you know, hold your pen slightly slightly differently, you will be doing the lighting will be different, your mood would be different. So those differences is what makes it really unique and special and you're doing something by hand. Sylvia (40:42) That's exactly it. It has to be done, like it has to be connected to the hand doing of it, right? And I think people quickly forget in this quest for perfection from themselves that if somebody just wanted something perfectly printed, they could choose a font, print out their place cards, print out their RSVP envelopes. And the initial purpose of getting a calligrapher or a person to do it was to give it the personal touch, right? So the aim for us is never to be like, print quality. And I don't think it's the most flattering thing in the world to hear, like, that looks like it could be printed. Okay, like, I don't picture art in its greatest form to be a perfectly replicated rendering of something. You know what I mean? Laura Edralin (41:29) I'll make it slightly worse next time. Sylvia (41:47) uninteresting to go in the realm of like hyper realism with like not much depth or meaning to it. Laura Edralin (41:52) It's hard to get that across when you're just delivering script on paper and it's words and it's, you know, not this huge canvas with lots of emotion coming through. So actually where you do capture a little bit of emotion and somebody's thought or pause or something happening, then that's lovely, isn't it? My gosh, Sylvia, I could talk for days. We haven't got long enough. We'll have to get you back in. Thank you so much for talking to me today. It's been so great hearing about your incredible businesses and how you balance everything. I think it's really, really inspiring. yeah, to find out more about Sylvia, so you can visit, I want to say via calligraphy, but do you say via? Sylvia (42:16) Yes, please. I say Via because it's the dropped part of my name Sylvia. Yep. Laura Edralin (42:39) Sylvia, of course, so via calligraphy.com or connect with her on Instagram at via calligraphy. So all the links will be in today's episode show notes as well. thank you. Thank you so much for joining me for the life of letters. Sylvia (42:54) Thank you, Laura. So good talking to you. You are an amazing host and I love what you're doing for the community. Laura Edralin (43:00) Thank you. Laura Edralin (43:02) That's it for this episode of the Life of Letters. Thank you so much for listening and joining me on this exploration of the written word. Please subscribe, leave a review or share it with a fellow lettering enthusiast. And for all the details to connect with us on Instagram or drop us an email, check out the show notes. A huge thank you to my producer, Heidi Cullop, for ensuring this podcast reached your ears. And finally, to all the guests featured in this series. Go check them out.