Expressive Calligraphy with Rachel Yallop

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to series three of the Life of Letters. I'm Laura Edrilyn, your host and London based calligrapher. Curious about the history and future of letters. This season we're diving back into the rich world of scripts, letter forms and the stories behind the marks we make on paper and elsewhere. A massive thank you to Speedball for sponsoring this season of the podcast. It really means so much to us. Not only do we have their Director of Product marketing, Melissa, joining me for an episode this season, but I've been using Speedball tools since my very early days of calligraphy, so their support truly means the world. Enjoy the episode and if you want to find out more about the guest, the podcast or me, please check out the show notes. [00:00:46] Speaker B: In today's episode. I'm delighted to be speaking with British calligraphy and lettering designer Rachel Yallop. After gaining an MA in Graphic Design and Expressive Calligraphy from Central School of Art and Design in London in 1985, Rachel has pursued a freelance career specialising in creative and expressive expressive calligraphy for nearly 40 years. For much of this time, she has also taught a wide variety of calligraphic disciplines in art schools and at conferences and workshops both in the UK and internationally. She's a founder member of Letter Exchange and an honoured fellow of class, the Calligraphy and Lettering Arts Society. Rachel, firstly, a huge welcome to the Life of Letters podcast. I'm so excited to be talking to you today. [00:01:29] Speaker C: Well, that's wonderful, thank you, Laura. I'm really pleased to have been asked. [00:01:33] Speaker B: Well, we first met actually at the Calligraphy and Lettering Art Society annual Class Creative event in London, wasn't it earlier this year? So it was a lovely meeting, so many artists, and it's really nice to connect with other people who are interested in this sort of world of calligraphy and letters. And could you tell us where your interest in the world of lettering and calligraphy and all of this came from? [00:01:56] Speaker C: Yes, no, absolutely. Well, it was a very long time ago. First really properly was when I went to art college when I was at Ravensbourne and I did a graphics degree. And it was in the days when some art colleges you actually did calligraphy as part of a graphic design degree. But it wasn't totally new to me because my mother had done some calligraphy at teacher training college and my father had done a bit too. I'm not quite sure how, but my mother still had her tools and some exemplars and so on, so it wasn't a complete mystery to me. But at Ravensbourne, really, that Was the absolute. The start of it properly learning different scripts and so on? Yeah, that's how it started. Wow. [00:02:43] Speaker B: And then you went on to Central St. Martin. No, not Central St. Martin's where did you go? Central School of Art and Design. [00:02:50] Speaker C: Central School of Art and Design at that time. Central Saint Martin's now. But then it was. Yes, it was that. [00:02:56] Speaker B: And that was graphic design and Expressive Calligraphy. So kind of taking what you learned from Ravensbourne into new areas. [00:03:06] Speaker C: Yes, yeah, no, absolutely. Again, it was a master's degree in graphic design, but, you know, it's thesis based. And my thesis was about expressive calligraphy in graphic design and how it could be used, because I had done quite a bit of that when I was at Ravenswood. One of the things, things I think that's interesting really, about the way it was taught at Ravensbourne was that of course we did formal scripts, all the usual ones that you would. You would think of. But we also did the freer, more expressive stuff and we ran those two together. Looking back now, I think that is why I am able to. To do all sorts of different styles, use lots of different tools. Yeah, there was a very sort of broad spectrum of what I learned there. And then, of course, I studied it further at the Central. [00:04:03] Speaker B: Yeah, that's amazing. And creating a thesis on it, I guess, becomes quite a different way of learning or exploring a subject from actually doing it to sort of writing about it. [00:04:16] Speaker C: Well, yes, theoretically, yes. Yes. And yes. Another thought really, is that when I was at Rainbow Williamsborn, I was introduced to the calligraphy of German calligraphers and. And the work of people like Friedrich Poppel, Werner Schneider, Hans Joachim Burgund. And I remember looking at their work and thinking, wow, this. This is it. This is calligraphy. And, you know, so that was a big influence on me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:04:49] Speaker B: And I think it's important to remember that, isn't it, when you do learn that intensely, that there is. It's not just through the college, through a school, through one person. Actually. You're now being introduced to a lot of people who are the kind of masters of their work and they are the ones that inspire new generations. [00:05:13] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. [00:05:15] Speaker B: No. [00:05:18] Speaker C: And people like Werner and Hans Joachim were members of Letter Exchange. And because I was a founder member, I'm so thankful that I got to actually meet these people who now sadly, gone and who were some of the very greats. I was very much influenced by them. [00:05:43] Speaker B: That's amazing. What a legacy to leave behind. And now, obviously, you specialize in creative and expressive Calligraphy, which I guess sort of suggests something a little different than the more traditional sizes, as you said, like copper plate, round hand, Spencerian are the ones that I kind of think of when I think of sort of traditional styles. But can you tell us what expressive calligraphy is? It sounds like there's a lot of movement in it. Perhaps it's using different tools. What could you explain a bit? [00:06:11] Speaker C: Yes, yes, yes. I mean, yes, one of the things I do absolutely love doing is using lots of different tools. And I think that does partly stem from the expressive calligraphy thing where I suppose it just a sort of simple explanation would be you're trying to express something, maybe the meaning of a word or a mood or you know, something like that. And so you think now what tool would I use to express something about, I don't know, say the ocean or you know, big waves, say what sort of tool would, would do the job there? What kind of line do I need to make in order to, to get that feeling across? And also, so apart from that, there's also the actual letters themselves. So maybe say it is something about the ocean. We need quite free flowing letters. So I would, I would design letters that would suit that as well. So it's about creating a mood or expressing the meaning really of something. [00:07:17] Speaker B: That's amazing. Actually. You can imagine a sort of feeling coming through the letters on the page which really takes that whole idea of letters having, you know, being symbols and pictures, you know, coming back to kind of writing systems and things like that to now using a system that we know of. Obviously understanding each letter has sort of integrity and they need to look like that letter. And now being able to form them in a way that you can still read, but. [00:07:50] Speaker C: Yes. [00:07:50] Speaker B: Makes you feel something. [00:07:53] Speaker C: Yes as well. [00:07:54] Speaker B: There's another level of connection, right, to the, to the word on the paper. [00:07:58] Speaker C: No, absolutely. And I mean that sort of leads one on a bit to all the commercial work I've done over the years where I was doing logos or names of products, say, and if you got, I don't know, say a hair care product, the kind of lettering you need to use for the name of that, I mean sun silk was one that I did many years ago, needs to be different to some shortbread biscuits or something, you know, so, so again, so I was using that sort of method all time in that work that I, that I've done over the years because it was no good concentrating on a particular script. That's not what was needed. You need to be able to express, you know, what's the mood or the feeling of the product or, you know, that you're trying to get across? So you need appropriate lettering for that. [00:08:50] Speaker B: Yeah. Wow, that's quite interesting. And so when you're exploring, so you're given a brief by a brand or you're. And you're beginning to explore the kind of. I guess it's like there's the story behind the word and you're trying to find an emotion and then you're going, right, I'm going to choose a tool that's going to work with this. Do you spend a long time trying lots of different tools out? Is there a process to this? [00:09:14] Speaker C: Yes, I would, I would. I'm basically one of these people that plans it out in my head and I imagine what it's going to look like on the page and I always thinking about what tool I'm going to use, the kind of thing that might work. I then pick up the tool and dip it in the ink and, and go. So I don't do lots of roughs and things. I, I just, I, I decide what I'm going to do and then I do it. Now, I hasten to add that it doesn't always work out first time and I may need to do it, but many times. But I, yeah, I would definitely think about what's, what I'm going to do and then I do it. We see how it goes. Does it need to be altered? Because I feel that it's only really when you're using that tool on the page that you can see what's happening rather than doing, I don't know, say, quite a few pencil roughs or something. [00:10:06] Speaker B: Yes. Because actually my limited knowledge of what I'm about to ask you is that as you're creating there's kind of natural or organic ink splatters or whatever, you know, there's, there's that you would never know are going to be there until you've done it. So I guess, yeah. So on that point, something that always really interests me about your work is this is the expressive way in which you use different tools. And I just wondered whether you could talk us through some of the types of kind of pens or tools that you do use which aren't what we would maybe think about when we talk about calligraphy, you know, nibs and inks and. Yeah, tell us, tell us what's in your pencil case, what's in your studio. [00:10:51] Speaker C: Yes, well, I have vast numbers of tools, obviously. Yeah, I suppose we think of the broad edged nib really as being a. Being more traditional things. So. Yeah, I mean, one of my favourite things to use are ruling pens and there are types of ruling pen that are the pointed ruling pens and perhaps people know about the cola pen, which is one that you can make yourself now. They are the ones that are noted for the splatter effect. [00:11:18] Speaker B: Is this out of the Coca Cola can? [00:11:22] Speaker C: Yes. Or, you know, other cans are available, but yes. Yeah. And I think it's largely the metal is fair, quite flexible. You're sort of a little bit springy. So that works well for doing that, particularly the sort of gestural style calligraphy with the cola pen. [00:11:44] Speaker B: And sorry, does that, is that look the same as a ruling pen or is it got a different edge to it? [00:11:50] Speaker C: Yeah, so it looks the same as a folded ruling pen, as a sort of commercial folded ruling pen. Literally a piece of folded metal cut to a. To a shape. And yeah, I mean, and the, the line made with that I. Is just endlessly fascinating. It has what I would call a bitten edge to it. So not, not at all smooth. Yeah. And then of course, you know, you may find it. Well, you have this. You have the spatter effect and you. And you don't really know whether that's going to happen or not. And you know, and really, it is exciting. [00:12:27] Speaker B: I was gonna say every time that. [00:12:28] Speaker C: Happens, you think, whoa, look at that. Amazing. [00:12:31] Speaker B: It's making me want to go and buy a can of something and try it out. So is because obviously with a nib you've got, you know, the, the little line where the ink is drawn down onto the paper. But I guess with a ruling pen or the kind of folded can style, are you literally just dipping it in and one movement will use that ink and then you go back in? [00:12:58] Speaker C: Yes, yes, I am literally, yes. Sort of dunking it in the pot and it uses a fair amount of ink. So, yes, you probably need to dip again fairly quickly just to make sure you're not running out part way through, you know, so. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely amazing. [00:13:13] Speaker B: And then a lot of your work that I've seen is generally got this strong kind of brand color where there's. It's black ink. There might be a pop of red or something. Can you tell us about that? [00:13:28] Speaker C: Yes, the black. The black, white and red. Yeah, yes. Over the years, sometimes people have asked me, so, Rachel, why is all your work black, white and red? And I say, are there other colors? And obviously the correct answer is no, no, there aren't. But I think this is actually something that I Learned from Werner Schneider. He. I can remember him saying to me, you only really need two colours in calligraphy, and that is black and white. And then perhaps you do have an accent of red. And the thought behind that really, is that the lettering should be so good that it stands alone in black and white and it doesn't need anything else to sort of enhance it, you know. But the. The accent of red can really make a big difference. It just so sort of lifts a piece, give, gives life. And I thought, well, if it's good enough for Verna, it's good enough for me. It's about contrast, you know, it's the ultimate contrast. And which is something that I think is very important in design as well, to have. Have contrast. [00:14:37] Speaker B: Yeah. And I guess it's something that you would have been quite used to when you're working with brands and creating, I guess, sort of logos and lettering for companies that have a particular palette of colours, you know, I guess it wouldn't have been endless choices for you. [00:14:55] Speaker C: Yes. And in those circumstances, I would do the lettering black on white, and then it's scanned. Or in the old days, you know, the chap on a bike would turn up and collect it and take it back to the. To the design consultants. So they then, through the print process and all the rest of it, they do do all the color silent. Yeah, yeah, okay. [00:15:18] Speaker B: Yeah, that makes sense. On the brands, are there any sort of brands that you've worked with that really stick out in your mind as ones that you've loved doing? [00:15:28] Speaker C: Yes, I mean, you know, it goes back so. So many years now, really. I think the Cadbury's milk tray, that. That was one I really enjoyed doing. [00:15:36] Speaker B: Wow. Is that still yours today? [00:15:39] Speaker C: So, no, that has changed now because obviously over the years, you know, brands do change. But I did notice that a while ago I was given a box of those and that they still had the logo, shall we say, that I did on one of the chocolates. [00:15:54] Speaker B: Oh, no way. That's so nice. Have you just not eaten that one? [00:16:01] Speaker C: So that it was a. An M and a T, but it was brought out, reefed sort of hash of the product was brought out around Valentine's Day. And they wanted the M to appear to be like a heart and the T to be like a kiss. Now with those letters, you can do that. [00:16:20] Speaker B: Yes. [00:16:21] Speaker C: And I used a brush to. A round brush to do those. Yeah. So it was. [00:16:26] Speaker B: I can see it in my head. [00:16:28] Speaker C: Shows how much Emily and a heart and a kiss. And then they did do that on One of the chocolates. And I'm still. After all this time, I was pleased to see that it's still there. [00:16:40] Speaker B: Still there, yes. [00:16:42] Speaker C: So, yeah, that was a really fun one to do. [00:16:46] Speaker B: Yeah. Any others? [00:16:47] Speaker C: Yeah, another thing that's been good, actually. It's a very old client of mine did quite a bit of work for colleges at Oxford University, and they each had their own, for want of a better word, logo, and I worked on those with him. He did the type and stuff like that. But I. Each of the colleges had an animal, a symbol, and for a university college, for example, they had a martlet, which is a type of bird, and balliol. I think there was a lion for that, for that one. And he asked me to draw those, but in a calligraphic way. So they were outlined, but using a calligraphic type of line, as in, well, thick and thin, basically, like you would say, with a pointed nib. You know, you get the pressure and release, so you get weight in some parts and others. So I did a series of those. So that. So that was great as a combination of drawing, which is lifelong love, really, for me, and the calligraphic line. So, yeah, those were great to do. [00:17:51] Speaker B: That sounds amazing. Yeah. And. And were you creating words as well, alongside the illustrations, the drawings? [00:18:00] Speaker C: So. No, it was. It was purely the. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. [00:18:05] Speaker B: That's quite fun, though, because you're taking your tools and everything that, you know, in terms of that. That kind of calligraphic style and applying it to something very different, which must. [00:18:16] Speaker C: Have been quite fun. Yes, yes, it was great to be able to combine, well, the calligraphic line with drawing. [00:18:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:23] Speaker C: Really? Yes. [00:18:24] Speaker A: Amazing. [00:18:25] Speaker C: Amazing. [00:18:27] Speaker A: If you're enjoying this episode and fancy supporting the podcast, you can literally buy us a coffee. Head to the link in the show notes. It's a lovely way to help keep the life of letters going. [00:18:37] Speaker B: Thank you. [00:18:38] Speaker A: Now, let's get back to the episode. [00:18:42] Speaker B: Can you talk us through some of your favorite scripts? Because you teach a lot of different ones. I know there's, I want to say, a capitals one and a double line course that you do, and you've got. I think there's a course with alternative tools and all sorts of different things, but when you. When it comes down to the scripts themselves, is there one that really. Well, maybe not one that's. That's a bit mean, but are there some that really stick out in your mind as the ones that you love coming back to? [00:19:10] Speaker C: Yes, I suppose. I mean, if I. Yes. If I have to actually pick a script, I would Say copper plate. And again, I like the sort of drawn aspect of that and I also like the fact that you are in control of the line because it's a pointed nib, you have to make it produce a thicker line or a thin line. And where is that weighted part going on the, on the letter? You have to control that. And so the. Yeah, the more formal copper plate I learned in the early days from the great Jean Larche, late French calligrapher, and I have. Well, he taught this and I have. I've carried on doing what I would call the swelling line, because much copper plate is not like that. There is a consistent line thickness, whereas all strokes that I would do start fine. They swell to a thickness in the middle before returning to a slender finish. So that is a bit different from quite a lot of complaint you would see. And then over the years, my friend Michael Clark, American lettering designer, again sadly no longer with us, encouraged me to design my own copperplate variations because he would say, well, you know, you can do all that formal stuff, you know, do something else, don't just keep on doing the same thing. Well, he sort of challenged me to design some variations and, you know, one way or another, I sort of wasn't getting on with it. And he would call and say, well, you know, where, where is it? Where's the work? And I'd sort of. Eventually I had to just get on with it to shut him up. But actually I'm. I'm sort of eternally grateful to him for, for that, because I, I loved designing different sorts of letter forms, but using the pointed nib all the same, kind of, for want of a better word, rules behind it, but. But then doing different things with the, with the, the forms. Yes. And then that has turned into my script, which is now known as Yallop plate instead of. Instead of copper plate. Yallop plate. The advantage of having a slightly odd surname which ends in a P as well. So, yes, there are many variations on that style and I have, I've written a manual about it as well, which covers it too. Yeah, so that has been. Has been great fun to really explore those. You know, a different way of using the pointed pen and other things as well. You know, there are all sorts of other types of letters that you can. Could do with the pointed pen, not just, not just copper plate ones, but again, in a way, it's going back to the tool. Again, it's what the tool can do. Thinking about tools. Other thing that interests me greatly is if you hold the tool In a certain way, you get a particular type of line. If you change the way you hold that tool, you get another type of line. And I find that fascinating. And it applies to all tools as well. You can get particular effects, particular types of line, by the way you hold that tool. [00:22:42] Speaker B: That's really interesting, isn't it? Because I think when you're learning calligraphy, you do very heavily lean into understanding. [00:22:49] Speaker A: All the rules. [00:22:53] Speaker B: All the important things to learn a particular style. But it is taking that next step when it's time to then do something a little bit different or bring in a variation, perhaps that's already out there, or perhaps that you want to. A particular letter, and this comes up with certain letters anyway, where people are really struggling with this, or I don't like the look of that. And when you've got those options to bring in something else, the design of the word can really change. And actually, I guess your practice can change as well. [00:23:29] Speaker C: Yeah, no, yeah, absolutely. It is, of course, very important to learn all the basics, all the rules and so on, so that you really are accomplished at that. But then, you know, for me, anyway, I get to a point where I'm bored with that, or I think, you know, there must be another way of doing this. And also, because I suppose I don't really like, you know, being told, this is the way you do it. It has to be like this. And I think. Does it? I'm going to do something different just to be awkward. No, not just. [00:24:02] Speaker B: No, but that's great. I mean, that's where I guess it's like recipes. I think I've used this analogy so much, but people bring in a different twist and change things up. And it doesn't mean it's wrong, it means it's different. And that's exciting. And then that's how we emerge with new scripts and get to teach new ways of doing things and push those boundaries into new directions. And that's super, super exciting. [00:24:27] Speaker C: Yes. Yeah. And it's very creative. [00:24:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:32] Speaker C: And, you know, if you keep sort of working in that way, you just explore more and more things, which is endlessly fascinating, really. [00:24:40] Speaker B: So you've got the ruling pen. Is that a particular script that you use that for? Is it only for expressive calligraphy? How do all the little tools. [00:24:49] Speaker C: So, yes, no, I would. I think perhaps the cola pen, I would stick to more expressive styles, but again, not necessarily, to be honest, the. The pointed ruling pen, you can do expressive styles with that. But I would also do drawn capitals. Quite formal, really, but, yeah, drawn those were ones that I again learned from Michael Clark. I'd done quite a bit of ruling pen stuff in the past, but then when I met him, he encouraged me to do more and more. And those drawn capitals that I do were really from him. So again, that's very versatile. So with, for example, that pointed ruling pen, something very kind of gestural and expressive, but at the same time you can do some formal capital letters. [00:25:38] Speaker B: So drawn capital letters, what do they look like? I mean, in my head. Is that a really stupid question? I'm not sure. [00:25:47] Speaker C: Well, you can make them how you want them. Yes. But if you think of the sort of the. A Roman capital. Yes, that general sort of. [00:25:55] Speaker B: Okay. [00:25:57] Speaker C: And so, yeah, I would draw the basics and sort of build up weight and so on. Got you. Yeah, got you. [00:26:04] Speaker B: Okay, so sort of almost larger scale than kind of writing them just in, you know, by several strokes. You'd be actually sort of crafting them. [00:26:13] Speaker C: Yes, absolutely. Yes. [00:26:14] Speaker B: In a bigger. Yeah, more detailed aesthetic. [00:26:17] Speaker C: But at the same time, because, you know, you are in control of what you're doing, you could make them very condensed, for example, or you could add a lot of weight to them or you make a much more extended letter or keep regular proportions or add serifs if you wanted or not, you know, so, yeah, you do, you do what you want with that. [00:26:39] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can. [00:26:40] Speaker A: That. [00:26:41] Speaker B: That again is pushing those boundaries, isn't it? It's kind of letting you be really creative with a specific letter rather than maybe even concentrating on an entire word. Because I presume you're. You're really focusing on all of the details and angles of the individual letter on a much deeper level. [00:26:59] Speaker C: Yes, no, absolutely. But you know, when one's putting them together into words, it is, what is your first letter and how is that going to interact with the second letter, whatever that is. Maybe if I alter that, the second letter in some way, perhaps, you know, I'll extend one stroke a bit, for example, because that means it would then fit better. And then what about the third letter that comes along? How's that going to fit in? Do I need to maybe alter something slightly so that that fits better and you get a. An overall balanced design, which is what I would always be looking for, rather than simply this is the way we do the letter. We just place one after another and that's it. Yes, because it may not work, actually, that. Whereas if you make just minor adjustments, that could make all the difference to making a balanced design. [00:27:58] Speaker B: Goodness, that's such. Yeah, that's so Useful to think about. Yeah. It's not just that letter that you're creating, but where it, where is it going next? [00:28:07] Speaker C: Yes, absolutely. [00:28:08] Speaker B: So in 40 years of calligraphy and seeing the landscape sort of ebb and flow and change, what have you seen? Would you say much has changed in this sort of world of calligraphy and lettering? [00:28:20] Speaker C: Yes, I think, I think probably a lot has changed. I think I was aware in the, in the sort of the early days that the expressive calligraphy was slightly frowned upon by the more sort of traditional people out there. I think there was also amongst some, a feeling that anything, any calligraphy that wasn't done with a broad edged tool wasn't really proper calligraphy. And I did quite a bit of brush calligraphy and that, you know, that sort. Well, is that proper calligraphy really? So I do feel there was a bit of that sort of mood at that, at that time. But not, of course, with my commercial work that they wanted some lettering that fitted, you know, the product and so on. But so I think that has changed a lot. So I think that the sort of expressive, the gestural calligraphy is far. Well, it's basically very much accepted now. Yeah. And you know, a lot of people out there who do the most wonderful stuff. So. So, yeah, no, I think, I think, I think that's probably has. Has been the biggest change, really. Yeah, yeah. [00:29:33] Speaker B: I love that, that sense of acceptance and actually the attitudes changing towards something that felt new and different now being something that's very much firmly recognized as something that really sits within this art form. And I think it's so important and we're so lucky to have people like you who didn't go, oh yes, okay, it's frowned upon, I won't do it. Because that could have left us where we were, you know, and hasn't taken it forward and said, actually, you know, it does have a place and, you know, it's very much something that should be respected and given its place in time. [00:30:14] Speaker C: You know, I think also that perhaps there was a bit of a feeling that the formal styles obviously require discipline and you know, they were sort of difficult and then that was the proper stuff and that was difficult to do. Whereas expressive stuff, that was easy. If you couldn't do the difficult formal calligraphy, then you had to sort of make do with the inverted commas easier expressive calligraphy. But, you know, goodness me, that that sort of idea has completely changed. And actually what I would refer to as disciplined freedom there, there is a huge amount of discipline in doing very gestural styles, they may look as if they're just sort of whipped off and done in no time at all, but actually, you know, each stroke is thought about and it takes a lot of skill to be able to put together a piece like that. Just as much, if not more, really, than doing very formal style. Yeah. [00:31:21] Speaker B: That years of practice and that years of exploring all of these ways of doing things and playing with tools and inks and processes and has created a way of doing something that possibly you make look easy as well. So it's. It's very. Yeah, it's very sort of simplistic to say, oh, well, it's quick and it's fast and it's. It's sort of, you know, one move and you're done and you're not sort of hours practicing over and over. But actually they haven't seen all the work that's gone in behind it. That invisible experience that people assume isn't there. [00:32:02] Speaker C: Yes. And it does take many, many years of practice. Yeah. [00:32:09] Speaker B: So in this series, we're exploring the theme of kind of legacy and innovation, which has been beautifully weaved through the whole conversation, actually, just sort of organically. But what would you say you're hoping to see in, say, the next 40 years for calligraphy? [00:32:25] Speaker C: Gosh, yes. Well, I should be over 100 by then. [00:32:28] Speaker B: And still with your ruling pen in hand. [00:32:31] Speaker C: Yeah, well, you know, I just. I really hope it continues because there have been sort of sad times in that quite established regional calligraphy groups have folded. I think, you know, part of that is that the members have got older and people have, you know, perhaps less able to sort of keep the group going. Yeah, we need some younger people really coming forward because I remembered for many years really, going to teach with the local groups and that most of the people in the class were older than me. And so that has sort of continued. And we do need some younger people to be interested as well. But I don't know, a year or so ago, I was doing a calligraphy demonstration locally. Lots of people came to view and there were children who were fascinated and just sort of watched. Mouth open, really. And I showed them all the different tools and sort of things you could do with them. And that just really gladdened my heart to think that it, you know, it was something that they were interested in and that perhaps could be, you know, progressed in. In some way. And it wasn't all, well, eyes down on the phone type thing. [00:33:58] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, or. Yeah, or. Yeah. Creating digitally or using things that are very quick and instant and actually Absorbing that moment of you creating pen to paper as well, which is. Is actually something really special to watch. As you say, it's doing it as one thing, seeing it being done as another. And I think it can inspire. It can sort of send those little sparks of. I think I want to have a go. There's a sort of exchange, isn't there, of energy coming through. It's lovely. [00:34:28] Speaker C: And there is just nothing can replace that, really, that dipping the brush in the pot of ink and then making a mark. You cannot do that in any other way. And if you look at the sort of digital versions of that, they're a bit too perfect. [00:34:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:46] Speaker C: Sort of like. Like looking at an AI photo, you know, everything is rather smoothed off. [00:34:52] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:34:54] Speaker C: And also there's that element of not quite knowing what's going to happen when you make that. That mark. And, you know, and that is. That. That's wonderful. [00:35:07] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:35:08] Speaker C: I love it. Nothing can quite beat that, really. [00:35:11] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Right, I'm off to go and get a can of fizzy drink. [00:35:16] Speaker C: Yes, absolutely. [00:35:18] Speaker B: And start folding nibs. Oh, gosh, Rachel, it's been so lovely talking to you. So to find out more about Rachel, you can visit Rachel yallop.co.uk. you can follow and connect with her at Rachel Yallop on Instagram or on Facebook as Rachel Yallup calligraphy and lettering. And as always, we will put everything, all the links and details in today's show notes. But just a huge thank you. Thank you for talking to me today. It's very exciting and it's lovely to hear about the world of sort of the expressive side of calligraphy when we can feel so sort of tight and structured. [00:35:52] Speaker C: Yeah, no, that's wonderful. Thank you, Laura. Yeah, it's been great fun. Thank you very much for inviting me. [00:35:58] Speaker B: Thanks, Rachel. [00:36:01] Speaker A: Thanks for listening to the Life of Letters. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow or subscribe wherever you get your podcast so you don't miss the rest of the series. If you can, leave a quick review, that really helps the podcast reach more ears. And if you're enjoying these conversations, please consider buying us a coffee to help keep the episodes coming. All the details are in the show notes. Finally, once again, a big thank you to Speedball Arts for supporting this season and for being part of my calligraphy journey from the very start. Until next time, keep writing, keep creating and keep celebrating the life of letters.