The Legacy of Lettering with Dan Forster

Laura Edralin (00:04) Welcome to the Life of Letters, a podcast where we explore the artistry, history and future of calligraphy, penmanship, handwriting and lettering. I'm your host, Laura Edrelin, a calligrapher based in London with a forgotten degree in archaeology and a curiosity for the stories behind the letters and beneath the ink. Through conversations with historians, artists, societies and stationary experts, I want to discover which of the forgotten letters Who are those pioneers of the pen and journey the world to join the dots between tradition and modern creativity? Whether you're a seasoned calligrapher, a lover of beautiful handwriting, or simply someone fascinated by the evolution of letters, type and the written word, it's great to have you with me. So grab a cuppa, perhaps your favourite pen, settle in And let's dive into the life of letters. Laura Edralin (00:57) I am delighted to be speaking with Dan Foster in today's episode. Dan Foster is an award winning, independent lettering artist and type designer. He works with agencies, brands and direct clients from around the world on all manner of type based projects from custom wordmarks to highly flourished and decorative lettering to illustrative and three dimensional type. When I discovered Dan on Instagram, I was blown away by his work, in particular the sheer variety of styles and projects showing his deep passion for letter forms. Dan, a huge welcome to the Life of Letters podcast. Thank you so much for being here. Dan Forster (01:36) Hey, thanks for having me Laura. Yeah, delighted to be here, yeah. Laura Edralin (01:38) And you're in Leeds right now, is that where you grew up as well? Dan Forster (01:43) So yeah, I'm in Leeds now. I've been in Leeds for about 28 years, but yeah, I didn't grow up here. I actually grew up in Manchester, or I should say greater Manchester. So it's a small town called Tilsley, which is about eight miles west of Manchester. So I was in Manchester until I went to Sheffield university and then two years in Sheffield. And then I got a job in leads at Ellenwood design in 1997. So showing my age a little bit. and I've been in leads ever since met my partner, now wife at Ellenwood. but I actually only stayed there for three years and then I left and went freelance. so yeah, so initially I worked in graphic design and it wasn't until quite a bit later that I actually got into lettering, and type design, even though I'd sort of grown up surrounded by it all, with my dad. So. Laura Edralin (02:24) Okay. Yeah. Dan Forster (02:29) But yeah, we can get into all that. Laura Edralin (02:32) Amazing. So we touched slightly on the sort of childhood growing up with another award-winning lettering artist. So you've sort of walked in his footsteps slightly, but your childhood was spent surrounded by typography and calligraphy and your dad, so Tony Foster, he kind of...led the way for a lot of kind of hand lettering artists. I mean, this is me putting words in your mouth really, but from what I've gathered, know, it's 60s, 70s, 80s, and probably even more, right? I think it's like a 50 year career that he really kind of pioneered lots of the hand lettering into the world as it is today. But is this how you got into lettering type designing as a career? Dan Forster (03:04) Yes, there you are. Yeah. Ultimately, yes, but it's not quite as straightforward as you might think. So, um, so as I mentioned, I didn't actually, I think I didn't actually get into, well, properly into doing like lettering and type until after he passed away, uh, which was in 2008. And it was actually, well, long story short, I was, I was sort of tasked with going through and like going through a studio, tidying up, organizing it. Cause it was like a total bomb site, know, there was just like paper everywhere and he was, you know, he was not organized, you know. So, yeah, so, but it took, it took a number of years to get it from that state to a point where it was like reasonably well organized and, know, at least put away in boxes so my mum could do something else with a room. But it was, it was just sort of going through that process that... Laura Edralin (03:55) True creative. Dan Forster (04:15) ...and discovering all this work, you know, because I'd seen his lettering work sort of growing up, but it was just like the scale, the amount of work that I found and, you know, a lot of the work was older than I am, you know, and it was finding that work and seeing that work and just being inspired really, and that was the impetus for me to... So at some point, can't pinpoint exactly when, but it was like, I think I might, you know, I want to try my hand at doing some lettering again. because he'd had me, he tried to get me to do calligraphy when I was a kid, when I was like 16, I think I was, I was just coming out of school. and there was a point where I used, I had like a summer job working at the swimming pool. was like a lifeguard. And then one of the girls on reception was getting married and she wanted, and I can't remember how it came up, but it came about that she'd sort of seen that I was doing calligraphy or something. And so she wanted me to do the, you know, the place names for the tables and the invites and all this kind of thing in, calligraphy. So, so I was like, right, yeah, I'm going to do this. So, so I did it, but I just got. I mean, she was really happy with it, but I was so frustrated that I couldn't make the letters as beautiful as I wanted to, you know, and I was going, so I was going through all these name cards and I was like, shit, I've messed that one up, you know? And then, so I was just like going through them and through them, was like, I've got to, I've got to be careful. I'm going to run out, you know, I was just, I was trying to get them perfect, but I think what I was doing, I was obviously comparing myself to my dad because he was the only other, apart from my dad, didn't know not anybody else who did calligraphy. I'd never read a book on calligraphy. There was no internet, so there was no tutorials, nothing like that. So he was my sort of benchmark for calligraphy. I was obviously comparing myself to him, which is crazy when you think back. I'd been doing it for a few weeks and he'd been doing it for like 30 odd years at that point. So it was pretty ridiculous. But you do these things, you do compare yourself. And I got really frustrated and I was throwing pens across the room, you know, getting really frustrated with myself. But this girl, I think she was called Lisa. She was really happy with it at the swimming club. you know, I think I charged her like 10 pounds or something ridiculous. Because, you know, I didn't know anything about, I didn't know anything about like charging for work or, you know, it's just a kid. So I think after that, just, I don't know, I kind of lost, not lost interest, but I got more interested in other things because my dad, although he was a calligrapher, lettering artist, he actually worked in a design agency in Manchester. So there was all aspects of design I was sort of surrounded by. And I remember him showing me work of like Herb Lee Bellin. And then there was also a guy called Fred... Woodward. Laura Edralin (06:41) Mm-mm. Dan Forster (06:59) ...who was the art director at Rolling Stone magazine. And we actually went to Edinburgh to a typographic circle event because Fred Woodward was speaking. And so we went to go and see him. think I was, I was like maybe like 17, 18. And I remember Fred showing all these slides of, you know, the magazine and because he was a really, he wasn't a calligrapher, but he was a typographer. And he, he won all kinds of awards and he was just like renowned for using all these different typefaces and being like really expressive with typography. And there was one cover that he showed that just like sticks in my mind. And it was, it was a Jimi Hendrix cover. So, and so what Fred was talking about was obviously he had to work with the masthead of the magazine, Rolling Stone, every time. And he said he was so sick of working with it. So any opportunity that he had to cover it up, he did. Laura Edralin (07:50) Mmm. Dan Forster (07:50) And he had this picture of Jimi Hendrix, obviously, with his big hair and stuff. So he covered up the mast head just to a degree where it just said, roll one, sticking out the sides. I just thought I was absolute genius. And so he talking about things like that. He was talking about combining typography with photography and imagery and just being really creative and playful with type. And I think that was... Laura Edralin (08:03) Brilliant. Dan Forster (08:17) another big inspiration point for me that led me on to pursuing graphic design, which is what I ultimately did well for the first, about 15 years of my career to start with. So, and it wasn't until later on, like I say, until after my dad passed away that I got into lettering and doing type and lettering. Then that evolved kind of slowly at first. But you know, I got to a point where I was sharing little bits of work on Instagram and I was getting a bit of feedback and people were Asking can I do a project for them and then slowly over time one thing led to another I got to a point where I was like Maybe I can turn this into a full-time thing which at that point I really wanted to do you know, I just it's totally cheesy, but I you know, I'd fallen in love with letters, you know... Laura Edralin (08:58) Yeah. Amazing. Dan Forster (09:06) ...and so that's that's how I got started really. So yeah, was kind of to do with, well, of course it was to do with my dad, but it wasn't immediately, you know, it came much later on from discovering this large body of work. Laura Edralin (09:18) And I guess that's so common in the sense that these dots kind of tend to connect, but not in an obvious linear way, right? It's probably really relatable to so many people, especially you touched on the kind of comparison-itis, that sort of horrible feeling that you're looking at everybody else's, especially when it's your dad's and you've seen all the work that has gone in behind it, and now you're surrounded by... Dan Forster (09:26) Yeah, that's right. Yeah Laura Edralin (09:45) ...just an overwhelming amount of pieces that he's created. So it's lovely that you've kind of kept that legacy going. And I know you've got his Instagram going so people can always kind of visit and look through. Sorry, I've prompted you. Dan Forster (09:50) Yeah. Yeah, I really need to pick that back up. It's been a while since I posted anything but no I should. That'll give me a kick up the bum to get things going again. Laura Edralin (10:06) You also, am I right in saying you teach lettering as well? Dan Forster (10:13) A little bit, not full time. I've never done it full time. I sort of dip into, you know, the sort of the courses sometimes just like I'll do like a lecture or I'll set a project, something like that. So I've never been, I've just never had the time to do it on a full time basis. But I do enjoy it. It's and I think by teaching you actually learn a lot yourself as well. know, cause it forces you to sort of analyze the process that you go through, like your own process. You know, and sort of then you can sort of spot any flaws or maybe different ways of doing things or even a student will come back and do, you know, challenge what you've done and say, hey, what about doing it like this? And then it's like, actually, that's a really good idea. So yeah, I think it's a brilliant thing. I'd love to do more, but yeah, at the moment, it's just time. Laura Edralin (11:09) You're too busy, that's a good sign. So what elements of kind of creating are you most passionate about and can you tell us a bit about sort of why that is? Is it sort of the working with brands, projects, the teaching side? What would you say? Dan Forster (11:24) I love all of it, but I suppose the main thing for me is that interests me the most is when I'm doing personal work and I'm trying to, I'm always trying to create something that I've not really seen before, which is, which I find really hard. It's really hard because you always end up going back to what you know and what you've done before. But when, you know, on the rare occasion that you do stumble across something that's different or, you know, you just draw a letter in a different way and it's like, I've never seen the form like that before. Then that's the most rewarding and enjoyable for me. and it's, but I find it, it is really hard. cause once you've been doing something for a certain amount of time, like I say, you do have your own process and your own way of doing things. And it's, it's really hard to break out of that, but it is something that I'm actively trying to do, mostly in personal work. But occasionally with client work, with, you know, sometimes a client will come to me with an interesting take on a certain letter because they're trying to maybe combine two different shapes that wouldn't otherwise go together or, you know, create some kind of other image or numeral or something within a word, you know. So it forces you to, you know, try and come up with a different take on something or approach it differently. so, so those, those kinds of projects can be challenging and interesting, but really I'd say it doesn't matter who the client is or. You know, what area of the work it is, it's, you know, if, it's just something that's different and interesting then, or interesting to me in terms of trying to find that, find that different thing... Laura Edralin (13:05) Yeah, have you had a particular brand or project that you've worked on that you've really sort of stuck with you? Dan Forster (13:12) Yeah, there's been, there's been a few. There was one I did a few years ago for a company called Studio Minerva in London. And it was a project for a luxury chocolate brand, which was called Cartography, which is all to do with like mapping. So this company, they travel around the world in these sort of equatorial regions, like, you know, searching for the best ingredients for the chocolate. Cause you know, the cocoa beans that they tend to find the best ones in those areas. So it was about this exploration around this equatorial region above and below the equator. So the result we came up with ended up being this, it was like a serif type, a serif, well not typeface, but custom type, but with a few flourishes built into it. And the idea was that the flourish would sort of convey this idea of exploration. off the G, the tail off the G came down. And then it went up and over the top and sort of round again. it was, it sort of reflected this idea of traveling below and above the equator and, you know, sort of reflecting this idea of the search. So that was, that was a nice one. You know, it's nice when you can use type and flourishes to help to tell a little bit of a brand story, you know? So that, that was a fun one. Laura Edralin (14:25) Yeah. Dan Forster (14:27) Yeah, there was a, I talked about this one before. There's another project for a company called Thought Matter in New York. And they were wanting to create something that conveyed their company values and mission statements. And there was 13 of these statements. And at first they wanted to do postcards and just like give them out to the staff and... But I had this conversation with them and I was like, well, if you do postcards, surely they're just going to sit on people's desks and they might get a bit lost and, you know, end up being used as like coasters or whatever. So I suggested this idea, like, why don't you do like this massive poster, you know, like, well, it ended up being like a zero this like huge poster and they hung it on the wall and it was like there to inspire the staff on this daily basis but for me it was I saw it as an opportunity to try and create one of the most elaborate pieces of lettering that I'd ever done at this point because it was a bit of a it was something on my my sort of bucket list I really wanted to see how far I push myself how detailed and complex I could make it. But also I wanted to create something that sort of lived up to this sort of inspirational or aspirational sentiments that they had in their values. So it ended up looking sort of quite kind of biblical and highly decorative, but it had this sort of feeling of weight and gravitas and importance, I suppose. But it took me about 30 days. So it was like...It was one of those projects and we'll say 30 days. was like 30 days over the course of maybe like two months, maybe even longer because I was having to fit in other better paying projects around it. You know, cause it was one of those projects that didn't really, it wasn't really about the money. was about trying to create a piece of work that I could use in my portfolio to sort of demonstrate that, you know, what I could do. but it was also, you know, I didn't really know what I could do at that point. Laura Edralin (15:57) Okay. Mm. Yeah. Dan Forster (16:18) I was just seeing what I could do. So I wanted to take that opportunity and they were, they were gracious enough to let me, let me do that. And yeah, not, not do it to a strict deadline as well. Laura Edralin (16:30) Yeah, that's nice. I feel like when it's project based stuff, I'm impressed actually that you got it done in 30 days without a deadline because for a lot of us it would be a struggle without a deadline. Dan Forster (16:41) Yeah, well, like I said, was, yeah, it was 30 days, it was over the, those were the working days because I kept track of it, but it was, it must have been more than two, two months, like start to finish. yeah. Laura Edralin (16:47) Yeah, that's incredible. And I guess that's pushing you as well as an artist, as you say, it's testing what you can do creatively, but also setting you up with a bit of a challenge, which sounds like something that comes through quite a lot. Like there's this sense of like, what more can I do? How can I do this? Where can we stretch this? Where's the story coming from? How do we adapt this letter?... Dan Forster (17:03) Yeah. Yeah Laura Edralin (17:18) How do we design this in a different way and kind of maybe not problem solve, but kind of talk through the letters. Dan Forster (17:20) No, definitely, definitely problem solve. Yeah, definitely problem solve. I mean, I think for me, even now, you learn something new on every project, definitely. And I think with that one particularly, for me, just, it covered all aspects of lettering or the lettering arts. So it was, first of all, one of the initial challenges was the layout, you know, so it was all, because everything sort of worked under this, this concept of work worth doing. So these were the main letters, the main or the main message, work worth doing. Then there was like a subline underneath that, which was done in a script. And then there was the 13, I was going to say 13 commandments, 13 values. I mean, I'd sort of build it to them like that though. It was like the 10 commandments, know. Laura Edralin (18:00) Yeah. Dan Forster (18:06) So, so it was like, it was typography with the layout. It was lettering because the work was doing that was in black letter. And then it was almost like getting towards calligraphy as well. Cause the, these sort of like sublime, the secondary level type was ended up being a script. So the first iteration of that script, I was grounded in calligraphy. But then... Laura Edralin (18:24) Mm. Dan Forster (18:29) ...Unfortunately that got rejected. so unfortunately, I think it was probably the best choice really because what we ended up with was more elaborate flourishing and I think it sat better overall. but yeah, it just ticked all these boxes for me. like, typography, lettering, calligraphy, like layout design. And it was, yeah. Yeah. I was really, really pleased with the end result. Yeah. Laura Edralin (18:48) Yeah, it's incredible. I'm always so fascinated by the kind of the processes that any any artists go through. But particularly when you're blending a sense of that there's something that you need to read, right. So you can flourish as much as you want. But if you if the person can't read what it says, there's a big challenge there. Dan Forster (19:08) Exactly. Yeah. Laura Edralin (19:13) So you're sort of trying to mix this idea of getting something artistic coming through, something that the eye can see that is making you feel good to look at. You know, there's all of these different elements, but then it's got to say something literally on the paper. Yeah, I think that's incredible. And if you can blend several different, you know, lettering, calligraphy, different art forms and the design all at once, that piece just becomes something... Dan Forster (19:25) Yep. Laura Edralin (19:37) ...quite epic, doesn't it? Especially if you've blown it up to a massive poster size and it goes up on a wall. Yeah, everyone can see everything. So can you share a little bit about the sort of historical roots, maybe even just in terms of the lettering styles that you have explored yourself to kind of the modern forms that you really enjoy working with? And I know that's not that easy to... Dan Forster (19:41) There was nowhere to hide with it to be honest. Laura Edralin (20:02) ...to say, especially as you're kind of pushing the boundaries of what styles are coming through in all your work, but are there certain styles that you really kind of lean on and always go back to? Would you say that there are some that kind of historically do feature in your work and how that looks today? Dan Forster (20:18) Well, I'd say definitely everything is inspired or, you know, well, yeah, inspired by history and historical forms. And I think for anybody who might be listening, listening, who's interested in, you know, starting off in calligraphy and lettering, I think you can't avoid looking at history at some point. you're going to get led to learning about the history and about calligraphy because obviously everything comes from writing. Everything is derived from writing. you know, in terms of my sort of background, in terms of how I got into lettering, yeah, I was inspired by my dad and I started tinkering at first and drawing, but then ultimately, you know, I was lucky and fortunate to inherit all these books. And obviously I dipped into his library at various points in the past. When I was a student at Sheffield, I actually did a project on Trajan, which was the Roman lettering on the Trajan column in Rome, is kind of the sort of foundation of all the letter forms that we use today. And a lot of people say that that particular example is the finest example of Roman lettering that there's ever been. But really if you think about it at the time and I've read a bit about the history now but before that there was lettering was just served as a you know it was just functional you know and there wasn't really much in the way of like the variety of pens that we have today. There was a lot lots of things going on like scratching into wax tablets all that kind of stuff. But it wasn't until the Roman lettering that like Trajan where, I mean, the way it's described for the most part is, you know, it was drawn by a scribe with a broad brush, a bit like what we use a broadening pen today. It was drawn by a scribe onto the stone and then there would be a stonemason or a carver who would come along and then cut the stone. So it was like two crafts people involved. But it was the letters were the lettering system. mean, Romans being the Romans, they had a system and a process for everything, didn't they? So they created this system for the letters. So, and it was all based on a square, like a circle and an in a square, and then a half square. So you had letters like the E and the thinner letters fit into the system. Laura Edralin (22:20) Mm. Dan Forster (22:33) Also at the time you've got to remember there was like letters like W that didn't exist and the U, they used a V instead of the U and there was, I think there was like three or four that got introduced later on. But so they had this very sort of rigid system, but it resulted in the process that they went through with the scribe and then the carving. It resulted in this beautiful set of letters, you know, and you could argue that it was probably the first time in history that letters were given a style, you know, and so I got this book when I was at Sheffield College, I think it was called The Origin of the Serif, it was called, by this priest, I think, who had studied the Roman lettering, he'd gone to Rome a lot, and so he'd broken it all down in this book, so I did a project on it. Laura Edralin (23:01) Mm. Dan Forster (23:16) I found it fascinating at the time but it was, you know, I was more, like I said, I was more distracted by graphic design but it was, it was always there, I always remembered that and then fast forward to when I was, I was doing lettering, there was a book that I came across called Letter Forms by a guy called Timothy Samara and it's essentially about type design but at the beginning of the book there's this fantastic short or brief history of lettering and type. And I recommend it to anyone. It's just a, it's a brilliant synopsis. And it talks about the Roman lettering. It talks about before that, and then it talks about sort of what happened after that. But that was a massive inspiration when I, when I read that. And that sort of spurred me on to find other books about the history of type and lettering. So yeah, everything that I do now is kind of, it's sort of grounded in history and calligraphy in terms of, you know, I always think about what kind of pen I might be trying to emulate when I'm drawing letters. So yeah, it's massively important. And there's some fantastic stories as well from history, just about how like certain styles of type sort of emerged. So if you just think about just in Europe, so I mean, the printing press was in, it was 14 something or other, I can't remember the exact date, but then it was shortly after that, there was a guy called Nicholas Jensen, who you might have heard of the typeface Jensen, there's an Adobe version of it now. So that was one of the first serif typefaces, well, we call it a serif typeface. was one of the first typefaces back then. Everything at the time in Europe, apart from all the black letter before that, in terms of typefaces, there wasn't that many that you could print with, but his was one of the first serif typefaces. And then that was kind of the style for years. It was just serifs, you know, in Europe. And then I think it was like in early 1800s, 1816 maybe, William Caslon, I'm sure you heard of Caslon. Now I think because I think there was like three generations of William Caslons and I can't remember, I think it was one of the junior Caslons. So he basically came on the scene, obviously long history of making typefaces in his family, cutting the metal type. So he designed this typeface called Two Lines English Egyptian, which is a weird name, but at the time I think there'd been lots of, you know, trips over to... Laura Edralin (25:34) Mm. Dan Forster (25:39) ...Egypt and there was a big craze but everything was like Egyptian this and Egyptian that and you know so everything At the time everything was was Egyptian, you know, so he just named this typeface two lines English Egyptian It was nothing to do with Egypt But it was it was the first what you would call like the first sans serif typeface so But also as well because the serif typeface that had also derived from the pen and from writing. Laura Edralin (25:53) Yeah Dan Forster (26:04) And it was what you call like a humanist style. But now this, there was no fix and thins. There was no contrast in the letter shapes. It was like a mono line sans serif. And it just burst on the scene and there'd been nothing like it. And everyone was like, what the hell is this? This is so ugly. This is awful. And there was this huge backlash. But the reason he did it, it was something like... Laura Edralin (26:22) Yeah. Dan Forster (26:27) because newspapers as well were relatively new, I think, at the time. And he figured out if you cut the serifs off, you can actually fit more letters in a smaller space in the newspaper. Because he was thinking about advertising columns and obviously advertising expensive. Yeah, so it was like a practical reason. But there was this huge backlash and everyone... Laura Edralin (26:43) Yeah, so quite a practical. Dan Forster (26:50) At the time, know, as far as I understand it, everyone was like, this, is the ugliest thing. We hate it. And so, and they started calling it grotesque. So that's why that's where the name grotesque comes from. That was like pretty interesting. But then sort of shortly after that, all these other designers who hated it started taking what he'd done. So this mono weight and then adding like mono weight serif back onto it. And that became the slab serif. Laura Edralin (27:00) Now I'm right. Dan Forster (27:16) So you've got this site really, and honestly it's fascinating. Um, if you'd have told me when I was a kid, like read about history, I would have gone bugger off. this history is the most boring thing. But when you, I suppose, when you have a subject that you like, like letters and you, you get to learn a bit about the history, then it, just becomes fascinating. Um, so yeah, so they've got this, this slab serif emerged on the scene and then early 1900s, the whole Swiss style happened. Laura Edralin (27:19) Yeah. Eh. Dan Forster (27:43) might have been a bit before then, not too hot on all the dates, but then, I think it was again, another backlash to this very sterile, sans serif Swiss movement that the arts and crafts movement happened where everyone went absolutely nuts and there was all kinds of wacky, crazy type styles happening and there was a whole woodblock style and yeah, I mean, I don't know how accurate my description is but it was those are the broad strokes as far as I understand it. So yeah, I've always been like massively inspired by history. History of type. Yeah. Laura Edralin (28:18) And do you kind of flick back through to get inspiration or is it kind of just all there buzzing around whilst you're designing projects? I'm trying to pitch you, you've been given a brief, you're sat at your desk, are you there with pencil, paper? Are you flicking through ideas or is it just kind of coming out of you because you've done so much of it now? Dan Forster (28:38) Yeah, a bit of all of that. Yeah, it depends on the brief, I suppose. I often get asked to design something that has to have a feeling of heritage and history, but it also has to look contemporary. So I'm like, scratching my head on that. Laura Edralin (28:49) Yeah. Dan Forster (28:51) How do you do both? but I think there's definitely like ways you can do it. There's like cues, certain cues you can take from some historical shapes, again, derived from the pen. So you might look at more humanist style letter forms and then use that as a basis to build something on top of that is maybe more contemporary. So it might just be to do with things like the proportions. It might just be more modern proportions. Whereas what I describing earlier with the Roman letters, where you have the square and the half square, that's what you call the classical proportions. it's, you know, just combining all these things can help you to get to a solution. But it can often be a case in that scenario of just trying different things and seeing where you end up know because it's a feeling as well isn't it you know it feels right so yeah Laura Edralin (29:35) Yeah. Yeah. And then so if you've designed, you know, maybe your first draft or whatever, do you then, how does it work in terms of getting that into a digital form? Cause I presume lots of the brands, they just want everything digitized immediately so they can stick it everywhere and build it into campaigns and things. Dan Forster (29:57) Yeah. Yeah. mean, again, depends on the project, but for most branding projects these days, most like brand marks, I usually would, well, it depends what it is. If it's something that's like what I call a refinement project where the client's got a fairly well-defined idea of what they want. Sometimes it's just like straight to vector and it could be straight on the computer but other times if it's something that they just have an idea of what they want but no design then it would be a case of sometimes starting with pencil and paper but with branding projects just for brevity I start on the iPad sketching in Procreate because it's just much quicker but Laura Edralin (30:34) Yeah. Yeah. Dan Forster (30:40) But I do like that process because it feels like you're still using your hand skills and you still got to think about the pen and all that kind of stuff. Even sometimes on projects like that, depending on the style, if I'm struggling with a letter form, like a certain shape or whatever, I'll sometimes get the calligraphy pens out and just actually start drawing the letters and that'll often lead me back to the right solution. It's like, yeah, the weight goes in this place, of course. You sure? Yeah? Laura Edralin (31:06) Yeah, yeah. Can I ask you a question? What's a brand mark? Is it a logo? Dan Forster (31:12) Oh yeah, yeah. Just like a, I mean, there's so many terms that get thrown around these days, isn't there? So yeah, what I mean is like a logo type really. Yeah. Logo type for a brand. They often get called brand marks or word marks, um, logo marks, you know, there's all these, all these terms and phrases, but yeah. Yeah. Laura Edralin (31:30) Yeah, yeah, it's that terminology. It's, I mean, it's the same with calligraphy, right? There's, there's lots of styles that kind of cross over each other and people use them interchangeably. And depending on who you're talking to, might, they might say something else. So it's, it's worth checking in case I completely miss something. Dan Forster (31:41) Yeah. Not yet, you're right. You're right, definitely. People use the term font as a catch-all, don't they, just to describe letters of any kind. Laura Edralin (31:56) Yeah, but I guess it's the same with the evolution of styles and letters and everything, you know, we're all using different ways of communicating and language evolves and, you know, how we speak and how we share across, you know, different platforms and ways that we talk. I think it's it's lovely that there's maybe not just one way of doing something, you know, because it gets us to think creatively. Dan Forster (32:12) Yeah. Yeah, I always think of, it's almost like we've come full circle in some ways in terms of just like day-to-day communication with texts and things like that. you know, if you think right back to the start, you know, in Egypt, but also in other places like Phoenicia, everything was, it started out with communication with logograms and pictograms, know, just a little hieroglyphics, as you might say. Laura Edralin (32:41) yes, of course. Yeah, yeah. Dan Forster (32:43) And now we've come full circle and we use emojis. It's almost like the digital hieroglyphics, isn't it? Laura Edralin (32:46) Yeah. Yeah, and actually quite a lot of those I'm like, what does that mean? So actually, perfect segue, as always, you know, what would you like to see in terms of the future of lettering? You know, particularly, obviously, you work very closely with brands and how they integrate type and lettering, but is there something that you'd love to see them do differently? Or that you'd like to be involved in? Dan Forster (33:08) I dunno. It's good question. I mean, everything moves in circles, doesn't it? Like I was just saying, and when my dad was doing his work, through like, well, 60s and 70s in particular, there was a lot more script work. There's a lot more elaborate scripts. And I think it was just the style of the time. And, you know, these days there's like, there was that whole sans serif movement, particularly in Brandmarks. Everybody was going into sans serifs and now there's a little bit of a backlash, not a backlash, but it's moving on from that brands like, was it Burberry who had gone to the San Serif, but now they're going back to something a bit more, something with a bit more personality, can we say? And so. Yeah, in terms of, mean, who knows where, you know, because everything's led by trends and styles or, know, whether people like to believe that or not. It kind of really is, I suppose. In terms of what I'd like to happen, I mean, yeah, I love working on scripts. I'd love to, I'd love to see a brand do something really elaborate with a script, just to, you know, a big brand, just to really, you know, break out from... maybe from convention or what other brands are doing that is, you know, perhaps trying to take something into a different place. mean, I was just thinking as I was speaking, obviously it's got to, you know, it's got to be part of the strategy. you know, that's what ultimately leads to the design brief and then design itself, but it would be, it would be nice to see something like that in the mainstream. mean, thinking about it, obviously we've got Coca-Cola. mean, it's still, it's a Spencerian script with Coca-Cola. Obviously they're not going to change that. They're never going to go sans serif. But yeah. Yeah. I mean, is that, I think, is that what you meant by the question? It's quite, it's busy on that. Yeah. Laura Edralin (34:47) Yeah, imagine. Yeah, yeah, definitely. It's a difficult one, isn't it? I guess it's whether there's, you know, if you feel that there's a big kind of innovation coming in terms of how we work with lettering, you know, how artistically we kind of bring maybe at the moment, obviously, we talk a lot about the historical roots featuring in a bit of a modern form. And I guess even from the practical ways that we use pen and paper to iPad, pencil, know, the actual process of creating lettering, I guess, always changing. Dan Forster (35:27) Yeah, yeah, I suppose. I well, just as you were speaking then, I was thinking about, you know, the AI, you know, so, I mean, I'm not a massive fan of AI, to be honest. I'm what what turns me on is like craftsmanship. That's what that's what does it for me. Laura Edralin (35:34) Yeah Dan Forster (35:44) When you see a person create something with their hands and they maybe show you the process of how they've created whatever it might be, whether it's calligraphy or a big mural or a sculpture of some kind, you see somebody making it by hand, that really impresses me. then ultimately my next question is about the person behind the work, what drove them to... Laura Edralin (36:05) Mmm. Dan Forster (36:05) ...or actually create that and make that in the way that they did and what are their motivations and all these kind of things. Whereas with, if somebody shows me a piece of AI, it's like, I don't really get, I don't get that feeling. I just feel like, well, of course it's slick. Of course it looks real. It's a computer that's been able to draw on thousands and if not millions of resources and just, you know, put all that together and spit something out and I don't know, just, it leaves me feeling a bit cold to be honest, but we can't ignore it. I suppose it's, it's this AI bus is like out of the gates and it's like, it's going faster and faster. So, it'll be interesting to see what happens. but you know, I think ultimately for me anyway, it's, always, I'm always going to be more inspired by human. Laura Edralin (36:33) Yeah. Yeah. Dan Forster (36:53) intelligence, human work. Laura Edralin (36:54) Yeah, yeah. And, and I guess in terms of like what the consumer is looking at, so like you're coming from that as a, and you probably do this day in, day out when you're looking at any lettering design all the time, you can probably understand the sheer amount of work that's kind of gone in behind it. You know, I know you've got loads on your Instagram from PG tips and pizza express and all these examples, which are amazing, but we don't necessarily see everything that's gone in behind it, all those conversations, all that kind of evolution of the design and how you've got it to where it is. Would you say that there's something that as consumers we should be looking out for maybe things that we can notice in the way that brands use letters and kind of the stories that they're trying to say? Do you think there's a weight that can be gained for us? I know we kind of, there's so much of it. Dan Forster (37:31) Yeah. Laura Edralin (37:49) right? It's even on Instagram, he's just scrolling, scrolling, scrolling. But, you know, would you encourage people to kind of just think a little bit more around when they do come across those hand-lettered things? Just see if you can pick stories out or see why they've done it. Dan Forster (38:05) It's an interesting question from the consumer's point of view, I suppose, because I'm just thinking about like branding and sort of a brand is what the, a brand is really what the consumer says it is ultimately. mean, so, you know, obviously the design team or the marketing team behind the brand can sort of say it's one thing, but it's ultimately longer term how the consumer reacts to it. So it's kind of hard to say what the consumer should be looking out for. It's almost like we shouldn't really be telling them in a way. Because they like what they like. Yeah, it's really... Laura Edralin (38:30) you Dan Forster (38:39) That's a really good question. Laura Edralin (38:40) I like what you said there, because really, it shouldn't be saying anything other than it's sort of a reflection back of what they've said, because I presume brands will do huge amount of audience research and understanding who their customers are. And those people who are going to connect with that brand, maybe already know what they want from the brand. So the brand is kind of echoing back at them. And if that doesn't hit right, then the consumer isn't going to pick out that connection. Dan Forster (39:05) Well, yeah. And we see this all the time. We see this all the time, don't we? I mean, there's the whole Jaguar thing recently. I mean, I don't know whether it was their plan, but it was, it certainly got a hell of a lot of attention, didn't it, in the press? yeah, you've not seen the Jaguar, just Google Jaguar rebrand. Yeah. I mean, it was, it was everywhere. I mean, it's a radical change, really, really, really different. So, Laura Edralin (39:19) What happened? What happened? Tell me. Okay. Dan Forster (39:30) ...I got to a point where I was actually sick of it. was sick of it. Look at turning on the social media and like everywhere you look, it's like Jaguar and it's like, oh man. But yeah, I mean, that's a perfect example of, you know, the brand that would have loyal followers and then whether those loyal followers like the new brand or... Laura Edralin (39:33) Do you to come back? Dan Forster (39:53) ...whether they hate it, it is undoubtedly a massive change. And a lot of people don't like change, especially if it's a brand that they identify with and they, you know, uh, cause it's a lifestyle thing, isn't it? It's like, well, you wear certain clothes because not only the way they look, but you know, maybe because that brand identifies with, you know, something to do with your outlook on life or I don't know, it could be anything. Laura Edralin (39:59) Mm. Yeah. Dan Forster (40:21) ...but you have your reasons for being associated or identified with particular brands. If you are, some people don't, some people try and avoid brands for that exact reason. So yeah, but I mean, yeah, we could get quite deep here with this. Laura Edralin (40:29) Yeah, it's true, it's true. Yeah. Yeah. Oh gosh. Exactly, I know the psychology behind branding. And that just really sums it up for me. There is just a wealth of stories and history and everything that comes through in your work and in the projects that you deliver. think it's just a fascinating conversation, isn't it? Where people have come from and how you've got into all of Dan Forster (40:42) Yeah. Laura Edralin (41:02) So we've covered a bit about who you are and what you do currently. But what I'd really like to ask is, can you give us a bit of a window into who you are, maybe behind the website, behind the kind of shiny, shimmering slickness of everything that we see on Instagram? Dan Forster (41:02) Certainly was. Laura Edralin (41:21) what are your interests? What's your life like outside of work? Dan Forster (41:24) Well, I mean, these days it's like I'm so engrossed in what I do. It's actually, it's kind of hard to sometimes find a separation between life and work. And I'm sure that's the same for a lot of people, but yeah, I mean, even when we go on holiday, I'll take my iPad and you see typography and letters everywhere you go. So there's always like inspirations, those things that like set off a spark and you might think, I've got an idea of something I want to try, but you know, I try not to go too crazy with that, obviously, when I'm on holiday, but yeah, like travel is something that I love, myself and my wife, we've been fortunate to travel quite a lot. We like to explore. we do a lot of hiking, walks, even like, like now in the UK when we're not away. We've got access to the city. It's 15 minutes away on the train. But then if you go in the other direction, you're in the Yorkshire Dales and you've got all this open countryside and it's, it's a really nice mix of the sort of urban center, but then being able to escape that and get fresh air and you know, all that kind of stuff. It's a bit more interesting when I was younger I actually grew up as a competitive swimmer. So I spent, I spent all my childhood, well, from the age of like nine or 10, right through until I was like 21, I was competing. Laura Edralin (42:26) Wow. Dan Forster (42:35) Well, it came to a point where I kind of realized that, you know, I'm never going to go to the Olympics or anything like that. But, but also I was getting more interested in what I was doing at college university for me, it's kind of about being out in nature and sort of being away from all things that are digital that we're just surrounded by all the time now being outdoors, being out in nature is like a big, is a big sort of escape for me, but you know, a big thing that I enjoy doing for sure. Yeah. Yeah, definitely water. Yeah. Laura Edralin (43:02) Yeah, lovely and big water themes, right? Interesting coming through. Thank you so much for just talking to me today and answering all my questions. And I'm to be looking out now for Dan Forster's lettering on everything, picking up all the brands that you've done. And if anybody's interested in finding out more about you, they can visit you at danforster.com and or connect with you on Instagram. I think you're Dan Forster everywhere. Dan Forster (43:08) Hey. Hey, welcome. Yeah, it's Dan Foster everywhere. I'm more of a visual person. So it's mostly Instagram and LinkedIn or on my website. Laura Edralin (43:38) And all the links will be in today's episode, show notes as well. So yeah, thank you for joining me and being a part of the life of letters. It's been great talking to you. Dan Forster (43:47) Yeah, thanks so much, Laura. Yeah, really nice to chat to you and meet you. And I can't wait to see who else you get on. And yeah, look forward to listening to all the episodes, apart from mine. Laura Edralin (43:55) Thank you. Laura Edralin (44:00) That's it for this episode of the Life of Letters. Thank you so much for listening and joining me on this exploration of the written word. Please subscribe, leave a review or share it with a fellow lettering enthusiast. And for all the details to connect with us on Instagram or drop us an email, check out the show notes. A huge thank you to my producer, Heidi Cullop, for ensuring this podcast reached your ears. And finally, to all the guests featured in this series. Go check them out.