Ornamental Calligraphy with Hunter Saxony III

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to series three of the Life of Letters. I'm Laura Edrilyn, your host and London based calligrapher. Curious about the history and future of letters. This season we're diving back into the rich world of scripts, letter forms, and the stories behind the marks we make on paper and elsewhere. A massive thank you to Speedball for sponsoring this season of the podcast. It really means so much to us. Not only do we have their director of product marketing, Melissa, joining me for an episode this season, but I've been using Speedball tools since my very early days of calligraphy, so their support truly means the world. Enjoy the episode and if you want to find out more about the guest, the podcast, or me, please check out the show notes. [00:00:47] Speaker B: In today's episode. I'm thrilled to be speaking with Hunter Saxony iii. Known as the last black calligrapher in San Francisco. Hunter relies on centuries old calligraphic techniques to create conceptual art that explores identity, genius, justice and mortality. He works with ink on vintage paper, but also collaborates with partner and tattoo artist Megan Wilson to create his incredibly intricate designs on people as well. So, Hunter, firstly, a huge welcome to the Life of Letters podcast. I'm so excited to be talking to you today. [00:01:19] Speaker C: Yay. I'm so happy to be here. This is rad. Thank you so much for having me. [00:01:25] Speaker B: It's great to have you. And as always, I always talk about the fact that, you know, you're on the other side of the world and I just feel very fortunate that we've got the technology to be able to have these conversations. So to kick things off, you're based in San Francisco, right? Have you always lived there? [00:01:43] Speaker C: Based in San Francisco. And I haven't always lived here. I was raised in Rhode island and pretty much after university, I moved here in 2004 and have pretty much been here the whole time. I lived in Austin, Austin, Texas for a couple years. But for, for besides that, I've just been a little Bay Area San Francisco boy. [00:02:05] Speaker B: Ah, lovely. And so you have a studio there. Is it, is it kind of a space where you can kind of come and go? Is it attached to your. Where you live? [00:02:15] Speaker C: It's a home studio. [00:02:16] Speaker B: A home studio. Nice. [00:02:17] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I love it. It keeps me insanely productive, you know, because I just can't seem to get away from the studio. But like. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I love it. You know, it allows me to have my puppy's cloth. [00:02:33] Speaker B: Oh, I love it, I love it. So where did your interest in calligraphy come from, but is it fair to say it's. I mean, you've got a few different styles that we'll sort of come on to, but. Yeah. Was there one particular style that kind of kicked this off? Where did it start? [00:02:46] Speaker C: Yeah, a good question because, like, I think my calligraphy journey maybe started through music and kind of like skateboard graphics. You know, there was like, I think in elementary school and like, really in junior high, that was kind of the first time I like, had an interest in what the letters look like and maybe tried to start, you know, in like art classes, starting to kind of replicate them. I would always draw, like, bands that I listened to, you know, I would like always draw their logos. And then, like, I kind of fell in love with other letter based arts, you know, like graffiti and stuff like that. And while I didn't practice graffiti in like, in a. In a larger context, I definitely. The love of letters, it just kept going as I got. As I got into college, and that's pretty much when I really started aggressively trying to create calligraphy myself. [00:03:42] Speaker B: Wow. And so what did. Is it something that you studied at college or was it part of anything that you studied just alongside? [00:03:50] Speaker C: Yeah, no, not at all. Just. Just alongside, you know, and like at that time, it was very, very loose, you know, like, I didn't really have. Yeah, I was just kind of practicing just for. Just for practice sake, you know, and moving to California after, I always knew I wanted to work in the arts. I just didn't really know how that was going to manifest. [00:04:13] Speaker B: Mm. [00:04:14] Speaker C: And I started working as a. As a curator in the Bay Area at large. And working with artists allowed me to take my practice of being a calligrapher and apply it into like a more gallery, traditional, practice based artist. [00:04:31] Speaker B: Wow. Okay. So you were working to curate exhibitions. [00:04:35] Speaker C: Yes, for other artists. [00:04:36] Speaker B: Okay. [00:04:37] Speaker C: Yeah. I ran my gallery for like four years and independently curated in the Bay for probably six total. And that was insanely pivotal to understanding what I think it is, how to be an artist. And then. And then I applied that knowledge to me being a calligrapher. And they're actually like strangely separate, you know? Yeah. Being a studio artist and then being a calligrapher don't necessarily go hand in hand. I feel calligraphy isn't necessarily. It doesn't take up much space within the art world. So to apply. It took me a while to figure out how to apply my calligraphy in a way that would be viable to not only the public, but the art world at large. [00:05:21] Speaker B: I think that's really, really interesting actually, because I really struggle with the concept of creating a piece of art from calligraphy because often it's so delicate and it doesn't seem to have a space, as you say. You know, you don't walk into a gallery and see a gallery full of calligraphic art everywhere. Until we met you. I think it's really interesting what you've done because your work is obviously it's, it's full of the calligraphic strokes that we see in calligraphy. Right. I wanted to get into this because it's sort of purposefully obscure, would you say? Because you've got the overlaying layers of different strokes going in different directions, different lettering. It's incredibly abstract and they're crossing over each other. So it takes a moment. You know, some strokes are creating words whilst others are illustrating an image. And I guess for me it's a beautiful way to kind of slow down. And I know others have said this, when you look at your work, you really have to try and process the piece so you're looking deeper and deeper into each line and each mark that you've made on the paper. But can you tell us in your words where this process of creating calligraphy like this came from? [00:06:36] Speaker C: Well, you know, I think my path in calligraphy, it started specifically as just a letter based artist, but my path as a gallery artist started as an installation artist. And what I would do was I would try to interlace my installations with calligraphy. And I really liked large, really maximalist, a lot of moving pieces in the installations. And when I look at my calligraphy now, I feel like the ornamental bits that I'm putting within the calligraphy kind of mimics a lot of the things that I used to like to have in my installations. I'm really into, I mean, I'm into maximalist ideas. And I think at some point, once I got somewhat proficient at calligraphy, you know, just letter based calligraphy, I then decided I was going to pick a kind of ornament or an ornamental path and add that to my calligraphy and kind of. It probably took me like five years of working on the idea of ornament. Then once I kind of figured out like a look of what I wanted my ornament to be, I added that to my lettering. And now I'm in the process of making the lettering and the ornament almost won. And that's really where, that's really where my work is going today. I'm really trying to take the ornamental elements that I'VE learned and combine them with the Gothic calligraphic moments that I've been creating. My galleries refers to it as mark making. I'm really interested in having a sort of mark making that speaks to me. Even though I'm using Gothic scripts that are theoretically not mine in terms of creation, you know, the Gothics that I'm. That I'm creating are based on replication. I'm really interested in trying to create something that looks very true to the root instead of like in a letter terms, something that looks very true to traditional Gothic lettering. Instead of like trying to make the lettering really crazy, I'm making the ornamental elements really crazy. And I'm kind of making the Gothic stuff. I'm trying to make it, yeah, as simple and as true to traditional Gothic as the traditional Gothic script as possible. I think it took me a while to figure out how to bring them together, you know, and maybe, maybe like the aha moment was probably like six years ago. I had, I started like traveling a lot. I was working as a carpenter and I was creating works in books and I would, I go, I'd be like traveling, like commuting on the bart and I would just. I just have a book with me and I would do some letters and then I'd do some ornament on top of it. And like, that pretty much led to me doing ornament larger scale. It really just came out of just random practice and just kind of like combining ideas and seeing, you know, just kind of seeing what would work. But never really, never really having like a mission. Like, I never really had, like, I never really. I never really knew where I was going artistically until I got there. And once I got there, now I feel pretty confident in my mark making ability. You know, like, I feel very confident in taking an idea or taking a theme and then being able to present that theme on paper, whether it's ornamental or it's just letter based on. [00:10:24] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh my God, that's incredible. And that unlocks loads of thoughts for me in terms of. Obviously, the mark making, I presume, has come from the practice of creating the Gothic letters or is it also playing with other styles? [00:10:43] Speaker C: The mark making is more with the ornamental style. The lettering. I think I've taken a more drafting kind of way of creating letters these days. You know, I'm really into measuring, measuring the letters and having like creating ruling lines so everything kind of hits and falls like in a perfect line. But I'm really into making sure that, like, if you're seeing something, if you're seeing an element happen in the T, it should happen in the exact same place on the letter next to the T and vice. It should just keep on going. [00:11:19] Speaker B: So there's a sort of mathematical sort of sense to it. But also you're creating a rhythm within the letters as well. Right. Because this sort of reflection and repeat element is kind of coming through the work of the marks that you're making. But some of them will be within the letters, and some of them will be ornamental outside of the letters as well. Right. How long do these pieces take to create? [00:11:45] Speaker C: It's interesting because I work on. I work on a variety of things at once, you know, But I think, like, I have. I have a show coming up with. With Eleanor Harwood Gallery, which is my. Represent my representative gallery. And I'll probably make six pieces that are on. That are on Pergaminata, which is like 27 by 39 inches. And I've only made one, so I think, like, maybe two a month or something like that. You know, I can probably do, you know, start to finish. But, like, a trick of my art is I'm always incorporating things from the past. I'm really. I think I might name this show Amalgamations because my art is. So much of it is me taking something that I've already done and re. Investigating it, re exploring it and kind of manipulating it into a new idea. But if it's, like, totally new, it probably takes me about a month. Yeah. If I. If I'm going, like, all out, you. [00:12:52] Speaker B: Know, and are you sketching these? Are you planning them? Are you, you know, kind of mapping them out and getting several versions of them done before you get to that final, final, final piece? [00:13:04] Speaker C: Yeah, my process is I will. I'll start on tracing paper. And some lately I've been starting, like, bigger, but generally learning from tattooing, I start really small, you know, like, with the. If it's ornamental, like with a proposed shape, like, I'll just pick out a geometric shape is like, my basis is my starting point. And what I'll do is I'll kind of. I call it like a skeleton. And I'll make all of the lines without ornament, and I'll try to get that skeleton is perfect as I can. And generally, if I'm one. If I'm wanting to bring new ideas into the piece, I'll pencil out the ornament just to kind of make sure that I understand how it should look. Sometimes I'll do the whole line just to make sure that it all flows and Everything kind of stays in place, per se, but. And I'll do that, and then I'll make a copy of that, and then I'll just keep reworking it. You know, I'll rework the copy, make sure the start to make sure the lines are in flow, make sure things are like my. My curves are proper, my intersection points are right. And then I'll make another copy and another copy, and I'll just kind of keep working from one copy to another copy to another copy until I get it where I think it's what I call, like, a finished skeleton, which is not close to the final, but pretty close in terms of the lines. And then I'll draw out all the lines, and then I'll do all the embellishments just in the moment. So for the most part, it's like, by the time I'm getting to the table, 60% of the drawing is already figured out. You know, by the time I'm getting to create a final. Yeah, about 60% is already figured out. And then that last 40 I'm doing in the moment. And that's where I think the movement of the pieces come from, because they're really. Even though, like, I'm measuring out the hard lines, all the ornament is just based on my hand, so it's, you know, it's very imperfect. Even though I want it to be very perfect, There's. Yeah, there's an imperfect nature to the work that kind of gives it, you know, takes it away from that, like, static, hard edge kind of digital feel, because nothing is, like, really nothing lines up perfect. You know, like, I'm willing to let it just kind of, like, you know, be in flow. You know, if my. I can't expect my hand to be perfect for every dot that I create. [00:15:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:42] Speaker C: And I. I want that, you know, I want there to be imperfection within the work, even though I am trying to play with symmetry and, like, I'm really trying to have it look like it's perfect. [00:15:54] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And. And on the surface, it. It does, which is what's so beautiful. Probably about a lot of calligraphy styles as well. So even though some of your pieces don't have words in them, they're using the ornamental embellishments to create this depth and kind of illustration of things going on. Right. And forgive me for a really silly question, but, like, is ornamental art like a thing that you learn, or have you kind of created the ornamental side of it from the calligraphy and from the mark making? Or are they things that have just, you've just picked up and created yourself. [00:16:40] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. I think, I mean, the basis of what I'm like where, where I'm pulling from, you know, ornamentally is pictorial calligraphy. It's, it started in the 14th century. It's generally like, it's Dutch, but it's, I mean, every, like Italian, German, you know, every, every large calligraphy heritage has a version of pictorial calligraphy within it, every European version. And it's, it's like when you see, like when you see animals drawn and it's made of loops, you know, like back in the. That's, that's where I'm pulling from. And I'm just kind of trying to take that idea and make it as wild as possible. It's in the, in, in, in root. I'm trying to take a singular line and embellish that line as much as I can. And like, what you're seeing is just embellished lines, pretty much, you know, a ton of them, but that's pretty much what it is. And at its simplest route, yeah, I would say like my, my, my fathers would be the people that were doing, that were doing pictorial calligraphy. And it's just kind of like, it's taken me a while to figure out what that can look like, you know, in terms of like florals. And I'm pulling from, I pull from a lot of cultures though, you know, like, I pull, I pull from Egyptian ornament, I definitely pull a lot from Indian ornament. I draw a lot of Asian inspired things that kind of lend to tattooing, but I try to pull them back into a more calligraphy, pictorial kind of arena. But yeah, yeah, yeah. Generally I'm just pulling a lot of different elements and trying to draw them with that mindset of how do I embellish a line and how do I make this object or thing with the fewest lines possible. Yeah. Almost like you're trying to just use the fewest lines to make the most impact. [00:18:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:47] Speaker C: Even though in the end I'm using a ton of lines. When it's all said and done, you know. [00:18:52] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Do you find it quite relaxing, like when you're kind of mid flow on these final, final embellishments and you're maybe getting into the final touches and you've got your, your base. Are you, are you there falling into this state of flow for hours or are you quite scientific about it and sort of. Right, I'm just going to add this bit and I've got so long And I'm going to, I don't know, like, what's the experience as you're creating? [00:19:22] Speaker C: It changes depending on how confident I am with the, the skeleton or with the drawing. If I know that I'm going to be doing just a ton of embellishments that are freehand and I'm not really. I don't have any guidelines, then I'll be very particular and very locked in. Because, like, generally a lot of the, A lot of the mark making methods I use are based on pressure. So you have to be able to keep that pressure, you know, and it has to. You got to kind of lock in to make sure, you know. And then a lot of times I'm replicating something that I'll see on one side, so it doesn't allow me to be super freed up. Because I'm always trying to make sure that what I'm creating is similar to what I've already created before. If they're just lettering pieces, I feel like I can be a little bit more free because I'll take the lettering pieces pretty far. As far as, like the skeleton goes. If it's just lettering, I'll pretty much get that skeleton almost perfect where I'm just tracing. Tracing something. Yeah, yeah. But like, I listen to tons of music and you know, I try to be. I try to be as free with my surroundings as possible while being like just so dialed into what I'm doing. But yeah, people have asked me, I do not think my work are making. The work I make is meta. Is meditative at all. You know, it's way too, for me, I'm way too into creating something that looks a certain way to just be free, totally free in the creation of what it is. [00:20:58] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so con. That's such a conscious effort that you're not able to kind of drop out of it. Yeah. As one of the few black male calligraphers in the industry, what was your experience of kind of studying calligraphy? Was there kind of touch points around you? How did you kind of come across it in terms of learning? [00:21:18] Speaker C: Well, you know, to teach myself, I spent a lot of time looking at vintage copy books and as I started to kind of like ponder how I could enter into the art world, because I made a very conscious decision to do this type of calligraphy as a studio artist. So I spent a lot of time learning and kind of like replicating and looking at past calligraphers. And I always, I don't know, I thought it was kind of Cool. I was like, oh yeah, this is like, I'm like the only one out here, you know. And like, to me, like, I'm really into individual, just individuality in general, you know. Like, I feel like I'm very individual. I feel like I look to be the only if possible. That's why like, I kind of use like the last black calligraphy, you know, like, I'm not the last one, but like, I'd like to say that, you know, saying I'd like to. Yeah, like, I really liked that I was doing something that generally is like a Eurocentric and like Asian art form in like. Eventually I did learn that there are like African versions of calligraphy. They're much more pictorial than like letter based. But there are, there definitely are letter based calligraphy that was made in like, that was made. That's African, besides the Egyptian versions, which are very pictorial. But they also, they all could kind of be put into the calligraphic scope, you know, if you, if you wanted to look at them that way. But my focus was definitely European style calligraphy. And yes, for me it's always been a positive that I'm doing something that no one else is. I always look at as. I always look at it as a positive. Even though in the art world that can be a hindrance per se when trying to traverse, when trying to traverse the, you know, like sales and the, the relevance of the work, if there isn't like a long provenance or a long, long history of calligraphy, it within the art world in like a higher level, sometimes it's harder to, to put the value that needs to be on the work, you know, outside of, like, outside of a place that's gone or toward calligraphy. Yeah. Because I do find that like. Yeah. In the art world per se, it's, it's just not normal. So you really have to work to educate and speak on why whatever you're doing within the calligraphic field is important as, as not like a commercial art. And their calligraphy is very much looked at as a more commercial craft, blue collar kind of work than like a fine work, which I think they're, they totally are, you know, but I, I do understand why they're very separate. And I do not, I always say I am not, I don't do wedding. Like, I'm not. My handwriting is, it's okay. But I have one handwriting that I make that like, is not made to be on your wedding. Like, you know, it's not made for your wedding invitation, you know, like, I'm making calligraphic art that doesn't really have. That doesn't have that. It doesn't live in that kind of form. You know, it kind of only lives in the, like. Oh, I kind of don't know what it's saying, but it's pretty, like. And that's what I'm into, you know, like, that's what I'm. That's what I'm going for. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:24:52] Speaker B: I love that. And it's drawing on something that has a lot of history. There's a lot of traditional styles out there. There's a lot of it that you can learn and you can take it in all sorts of different directions. And you're taking it in one that not many people have seen, right? With. With the combination of. Of work that you put into it. And when you started exhibiting your pieces, what was your experience of putting it out there and putting on the walls? Like, how is it. How was it received? [00:25:22] Speaker C: Yeah, it's been. It's been really positive. You know, I think working in the Bay Area, in the San Francisco art scene, it's. It's. It's just. This is. It's a really great time, I think, for the arts in San Francisco. I think we. The arts has had some. I mean, as art communities do, they go up and down. You know, this is like an ever changing city. But I think right now the art community is like, really going up, and I feel very privileged to take part. You know, this is a very hard city to make a living as an artist. It always is a trip to me. Like, I'm always like, oh, my. Like, I can never believe that people. People are into what I do in any regard, whether it's like the simplest compliment or they want to own something, you know, I mean, yeah, I'm still a little shocked, but, like, I try to just kind of move with the fact that I'm creating and I'm proud of what I make. So if that works for people and they're, you know, they relate to it, like, that's the best gift, you know, like, that's the best thing that I. That I can have happen to my art, is that people will take what I'm making and it's such a strange kind of thing in the art world and be into it, you know, because I know it's not. It's not the norm. [00:26:56] Speaker B: It's very different. Right. Creating something just for yourself and exploring ideas and the whole process that you've gone through to get to this kind of signature way of creating to then share it with people. [00:27:12] Speaker C: I'm taking ideas, and I'm. I'm putting my narrative into the world. You know, my partner is a tattooist, and she creates other people's narratives in the world. You know, they tell her or ask her to make them something. I'm pretty much going into the art. The art itself, it changes, you know, because sometimes it's what do I want to make? And other times when there's, like, pressure or it's a new gallery or I have to consider, what do people want to see? And I think as artists, that's always like, a very. It's a. That's a really interesting conversation of, am I creating what I want, or am I creating what people. What I want people to see, Therefore, internally, what I kind of want people to buy. Because I, you know, I. I like that the commerce of art is also, like, a very interesting and real thing in my life. I mean, I assume in any artist's life, you know, but. Yeah, yeah, that's. That's something that I, you know, deal with all the time is like, do I want my. Do I want to go crazy? Because crazy generally means that you might not be able to understand the messaging. You know, it won't be. The messaging may not be direct and. Yeah. Or like, do I want to go symmetrical? A lot of times, symmetrical art is easier for people to understand. I was really into asymmetrical art. I think it's. I think asymmetrical art is more difficult. Like, the individualist thing. I really. I'm like, oh, yeah, how can I make this harder? I'll make it asymmetrical, but make you like it. [00:28:50] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:28:51] Speaker C: That's way cooler than. It's symmetrical. So, like, it's easy to understand. [00:28:56] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. It's pretty to look at. Yeah. [00:28:59] Speaker C: But I had to go toward that in the gallery because it's harder for people. It was just harder for me, you know, and I shouldn't say people, but it's harder for me to make asymmetrical work that's sold, as opposed to me making symmetrical work that sells, you know, whether. And people like the asymmetrical stuff, you know, But. But it's. There's just something about symmetry that. That works. And that conversation of, like, who am I making this work for? You know? Yeah. It's something that I'm always. Always dealing with. You know, I hope to get to a level where I'll just make work for me and it'll be received as such, you know, that will be enough. But right now I'm still. Still in between that. That kind of phase. [00:29:45] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's how people, you know, if it's in an exhibition, if up on the wall is the whole commercial side of. Are they walking in and experiencing the art, or are they walking in and going, I want that. I want to see that up on my wall every day or whatever. So I guess it's. Yeah, do they want to take that away? And it is now something that they have. But your style has also been described as like, haunting and potent. And sometimes it's in response to social or political things going on around you. But it's not particularly sort of activist art. You wouldn't describe it as that. Is that right? It's more about understanding the world around you, would you say? [00:30:26] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. I don't look at my. I don't look at. I don't call myself an activist and I don't. Even if I make art that has a political nature, I don't look at it as activist art because to me, my art making process allows me to understand problems, strifes, positives within the world. So when I put something on paper, it's more about me understanding why I'm making that art than me trying to tell someone, have my art, tell someone to do something. You know, if I can make you consider something, that's what I'm into. I'm not trying to tell you what to do. And I feel that a lot of times political art, being political art and being a political artist in general is a lofty term. I think if someone is a political artist, they need to really do the work per se, to be a political artist. These days, I find people's politics kind of like sway a little bit to like, whatever is like, going wrong in the world, you know, and like, I think that's okay, but I think that it's like, yeah, it's limiting a little bit when, yeah, when people just make political art because something is wrong, like, I think that's great. But yeah, I just don't. I just don't do that. You know, my work is like an investigation, you know, And I feel that I'm very. That I'm very emphatic with the world, you know, And I try to. I try to pick topics that I think, yeah, are relevant to me, regardless if they're political or not, you know? Yeah. [00:32:01] Speaker B: What's been your favorite piece to create, would you say? Can you pick one? [00:32:07] Speaker C: Oh, my favorite piece, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Probably my favorite conceptual moment that I've, like, created. I've created. I've created a few in different arenas. But, like, on a more personal tip, I was. At one point. I mean, I'm always into, like, people not really being able to read what I created unless I tell them what it says. And at one point, I started a calligraphy series called between you and me. And I would do a ton of ornament, and then I would write a word on the paper, but I would write the word in either like, a counterclockwise or clockwise kind of way. So when you look at the piece, it just looks like a lot of letters, like, kind of going around in a circle. But if you kind of, like, you know, if you put it all together, it says a word. And my goal was to only have the person who collected the art know what it. What it said, and if they wanted to tell people, like, what the work meant, totally cool. If not, it just looks like incantation y kind of kind of drawing. And I've continued to use that idea of, like, if you know what it says, I don't think you need to be able to read what it says. I think that the beauty is in you knowing. Not necessarily. And you just being able to be like, this is what it says. It's like, you know what it says. So if you know what it says, like, it doesn't really matter if you can read it or not. And I think that's, like, you know, that's a little. It's kind of a weird theory, but it's one that, like, maybe I pulled from graffiti a little bit, but it's one that, like. Yeah, goes through my work a lot, you know, Like, I really liked to be like, this is what it says. But, like, you don't have to be able to see it to believe it. [00:34:01] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that. That reminds me of seeing calligraphy in different languages and appreciating the sort of beauty of the script and what. What comes up and maybe not spoke to Ru Al Alam, who did Arabic calligraphy in the first series, and he creates all these scripts. Maybe you know the word, but it's. It's created in such a way that it. You don't have to be able to read the word to appreciate the beauty of it. And I think that's such a lovely way to use scripts. [00:34:28] Speaker C: And truly. And, like, I do think that maybe a little bit of that also comes from, you know, Arabic. I definitely think those in there is a bit of that influence from Arabic cultures. And, like, always seeing Arabic scripts and not Being able to read them at all. But the way you feel about what you're seeing would, like, almost kind of tell you the energy, you know? Yeah. I thank you for bringing that up, because I do think that's almost the exact same. To understand the technical value and the beauty of the work. [00:35:05] Speaker B: Yeah. Or to have a connection to it. I love the idea of, like, between youn and Me is such a powerful kind of title for that series as well. It's really beautiful. [00:35:15] Speaker A: Fancy joining me for a calligraphy workshop? [00:35:18] Speaker B: Or course, soon. [00:35:19] Speaker A: Whether you're a total beginner or want a mindful creative boost, I'd love to see you there. Check out what's coming up via the link in the show notes. Now, let's get back to the episode. [00:35:31] Speaker B: And so if you were doing anything in calligraphy, is it really always coming back to this Gothic script, would you say? [00:35:37] Speaker C: Generally, yeah. I mean, like, I spent a long time understanding how to draw Gothic lettering and kind of, like, in, like, a drafting kind of standpoint, you know, there's almost like a formula to it. If you understand how to make the strokes and you understand how to measure distance and width of, like, curved areas, it becomes very formulaic. And I think I've. As. I've gotten better at it, I've tried to draw crazier Gothic letters. But also understanding that depending on what I'm making, it kind of lends to the script. Then if it's for me, I feel I use wilder letters. If it's something for, like, a. Like a client or a commission, I'll probably use more simplistic lettering. [00:36:25] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. And your work is nearly always in black and red, is that right? [00:36:33] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Gallery stuff. Yep. [00:36:36] Speaker B: Yeah. And what. What. What's the meaning behind that? Or is there no meaning? Is it just that you really like black and red? [00:36:43] Speaker C: You know, like. Like you said in the intro, I'm really into mortality. I'm really into the idea of memorializing things. The black and red kind of. They're. They're very powerful colors. Just in general together. They were. They've been used in Dada. They've been used. And generally the red, I actually. Because red was the first pigment color, so when I would see calligraphy, like, way, like super old calligraphy, I would always see it as black and red. You know, that's like, generally kind of where you see it first, you know, and that's where I first started. That's where I first took the idea to do my calligraphy in black and red, but also Black and red as a color combination has always kind of held relevance to me in terms of, like, occultism and mysticism and. Yeah, yeah. It's. They're very powerful colors, you know, and I understand that putting them together. Yeah, yeah. Kind of holds that, you know, Like, I try not to be super specific in the mysticism thing. You know, I don't. I don't like to throw people off. You know what I'm saying? But, like. Yeah, yeah. Black and red are. They're very powerful colors, and I really. I really like that I can pull them back to a spiritual nature if I. If I want to. [00:38:11] Speaker B: Yeah. I also love it because I really struggle with, like, colors in general, like, trying to choose a color, trying to. What's the meaning behind that color? How does that color make me feel? It almost gets slightly overwhelming. And I feel like if you've. If you're working with these two colors for all the reasons you've said, then it almost removes that extra layer of. I was going to say decision making, but it's almost like the distraction for you as an artist. Like, it doesn't need to be anything other than the colors that you've chosen. And that's. There's something really powerful in that, I think. [00:38:45] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. And, like, now I'm using gray. I'm, like, slowly but surely putting gray in there. Big color change. But, like, with the paper, you know, given that it's on the front and the back, that's like two other colors, you know, so it's like. It's like I have a red on the front. That's one tone of red, and then I have a red on the back that's another tone. And then the same thing with black, you know, so it's like. [00:39:08] Speaker B: And is that. So it shows through? [00:39:10] Speaker C: Yes. So, like. Yeah, like, I'm. I'm playing with gradient and visibility and texture, you know, And I really like pergaminata as a paper that's, like, semi transparent because I like the paper itself. That's also, like, I think really important to my work is that I'm using an Italian parchment paper that is very. I mean, like, it's not super special. It's paper, but, like, as a calligrapher's paper. It's a special calligrapher's paper. And, like, I just think it's really beautiful. So. Yeah. Making someone look through the paper forces them to look at the paper itself. [00:39:49] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And question more about it. Right. There's depth to it. Even more depth. Like, literal depth. Because you're playing with not only the layers of the kind of creation on the paper, but there's. There's layers behind it and in front of it. It's incredible. [00:40:05] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [00:40:07] Speaker B: And then you've also got your work going out onto people's bodies. Right. So Megan takes your art and creates it somewhere on somebody's body. [00:40:19] Speaker C: Yeah. Sigil, we call it as a. As a collaborative project. You know, we call it Sigil Contemporary. And I love conceptual ideas. You know, like, I try to put tons of conceptual theory into my art. And Sigil Contemporary itself is a conceptual idea. And generally, Megan being a very proficient tattooer, she had a pre built in clientele. So when we got together and she started just kind of showing my art to people, they started liking my art. So I kind of came up with like a conceptual tattoo experience that we could give to people that would be my art and her art. Because how it kind of works is like, let's say you're the client. Once we got to a point where you were okay with the drawing, then I would give it to Megan and Megan would redraw my drawing and in a more tattooable manner. [00:41:18] Speaker B: Okay. [00:41:19] Speaker C: And then she would tattoo that on the client. And then I take that drawing from Megan and I redraw it as my art and I give that to the client. So it kind of like. Yeah, it kind of gives the person a tattoo that is as both of our energies in it, and then it gives them a finished piece of gallery art that is just my interpretation of the tattoo itself, but based on Megan's redraw. So it's like I'm taking her artistic hand and redrawing it after she's taken my hand and redrawn it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:42:03] Speaker B: Wow. [00:42:03] Speaker C: Yeah. And then I've started. Believe it weirdly. Then I've started taking the finished drawing that I give to the person, which is generally like the size of their tattoo, which is not like super big. Then I started taking that drawing and making gallery art that is this size based on that drawing itself. And it kind of like takes the tattooing process all the way from someone's idea as a tattoo all the way to a finished piece of gallery art that's representational of all three of our energies. [00:42:39] Speaker B: So you've flipped that process of creating something for someone else. It's then going through two different artists hands, but still incorporating somebody else's vision, I guess. Right. [00:42:54] Speaker C: And it keeps changing, you know, so what I show the person is actually different than what they get tattooed and Somewhere along the lines I was like, oh, like the. Yeah, the. The exchange of ideas is really interesting to me. And then also the exchange of masculine and female energy is also really interesting to me in an artistic sense. And generally, most of the clients that I'm working with are female, so I'm usually trying to create something that holds all of that energy and still has a little bit of masculine, still a little bit of me in there, too, you know, and that's like. Yeah. That duality of. Of different ideas, perspectives, genders all coming into making one image is like the strength or like the. What I think is the cool thing of that conceptual project, you know, besides the tattoos, which are always, like, really, really cool. [00:43:51] Speaker B: Yeah, really cool. What. What is a sigil? [00:43:53] Speaker C: A sigil going into, like, occult stuff, you know, they could be markers of magic sometimes they could be incantations made into, like, pictorial nature, but they generally are like seals are things that are meant to encapsulate a magical or ritualistic thought. [00:44:16] Speaker B: Okay, perfect. You like dictionary definition. Thank you. So I need. [00:44:22] Speaker C: So I hope it's right. But it's. It's. It's. It's. It's close. Yes. Sigils, you know, like, I love. I love magic. I love. I love voodoo. I love things of that nature. I love the occult. I love the idea of, like, something being there, being, like an extra mystery, an extra mystique to the world. And, like, regardless of whether, like, I believe these theories, which I totally actually do not, like the. I like the metaphysics that they bring to life. I'm interested in the imperfections of life, you know, and if. If somebody. If somebody is looking for something and they find it within a symbol or a book or a person or a picture, like, I'm down, you know, Like, I think that's great. So for me. Yeah. Yeah. Mysticism is just. It's always been a part. It's always been super interesting to me, probably since I was, like, a really little kid. [00:45:21] Speaker B: I love that. And it's sort of that which we don't understand fully, and there's a sort of wonder in it, isn't there? There's, like a curiosity and something that you can really explore. But also it's quite a visceral feeling that you get from things, which I guess is kind of comes full circle back to what you do and how you create it. Right. [00:45:41] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:45:42] Speaker B: So next for you, exhibition coming. What. What other sort of big projects have you got in mind or what's coming up to? [00:45:50] Speaker C: Well, I have a show in June, a really nice group show that I'm really excited about speaking on. Like, the haunting nature of my work. I'll be making like, a memorial piece for a park that is no longer around. I haven't really made many letter pieces lately, so it'll be nice to just kind of like make a fully full letter piece. No, I don't think I'm going to do any ornamentation, really. Going to try to push whatever I can do as far as, like, as far as lettering. And then I have a solo show in August and I'll be making mostly ornamental stuff, I think for that show. I like showing ornamental work in the gallery format. I feel like. Like it's easier for people, you know. Yeah, yeah. Because sometimes the subject matter that I like to speak on is a little bit sad. Boy or girl, you know, that's just. Just kind of. Yeah, yeah, that. That's a. That's a language that I like to have in my work. You know, I don't know if it's. I'm not really trying to make, like, the happiest work in the world and. Yeah, yeah. So it's. It's easier for me to make ornamental stuff and like, let the person figure out whatever they think it is then for me, straightforward. [00:47:10] Speaker B: Tell them, oh, that's brilliant. That's really exciting. And we'll be watching out for. For all the updates and all the things coming out as you. As you start to share them and people can find out more about you on Instagram at death. Underscore by underscore. A thousand underscore serifs. So many underscores. But we will put all. We'll put these in the show notes. And you have a website pocketbook, pocketful, amethyst, yeah.com and of course Sigil Contemporary on Instagram as well, where you can see the. The kind of collaborative projects that you do and the tattooing. Incredible stuff. But yeah, we'll put everything in the show notes for the episode. But just a huge thank you for talking to me today. It's been absolutely fascinating and it's lovely to expand the kind of world of. Of letters into new, new spaces and new, lovely creation. So thank you for sharing all of that with us. [00:48:11] Speaker C: Yeah, thank you so much for this time. Thank you for having me. Yeah, it's been great. You know, I look forward to seeing all you create and all you do in the future. [00:48:23] Speaker B: Thank you. [00:48:28] Speaker A: Thanks for listening to the Life of Letters. If you enjoyed this episode, please follow or subscribe wherever you get your. Your podcast so you don't miss the rest of the series. If you can, leave a quick review that really helps the podcast reach more ears. And if you're enjoying these conversations, please consider buying us a coffee to help keep the episodes coming. All the details are in the show notes. Finally, once again, a big thank you to Speedball Arts for supporting this season and for being part of my calligraphy journey from the very start. Until next time, keep writing, keep creating, and keep celebrating the life of letters.