Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Welcome to the Life of Letters, a podcast exploring the history and future of calligraphy, handwriting, type design, and all things lettering.
Join me, Laura Edrilyn, a London based calligrapher, as I connect with artists, historians, stationary experts, and more from around the world to uncover the stories behind the letters and the journeys of those who bring them to life.
In today's episode, I'm delighted to be speaking with Robert Bree, lettering artist and graphic designer and host of the Flourish Club based in Munich, Germany. Robert's big passion is for teaching the art of flourishing, which he shares on Instagram and through his website with articles, tutorials, freebies and workshops. Robert, firstly, a huge welcome to the Life of Letters podcast. I'm very, very happy to be talking to you today.
[00:00:51] Speaker B: Thank you for inviting me. I'm honored to be your guest and in your live Letters podcast.
[00:00:58] Speaker A: Thank you, Robert. So I thought we would just kick off with talking a little bit about what the Flourish Club is, and I wondered whether you could kind of briefly introduce what it is that you run and what people can find out about it.
[00:01:15] Speaker B: Yeah. So the main idea of the Flourish Club is a place to be if you share the same passion for flourishes.
So no matter where you come from, if you are a calligraphy artist or lettering artist, or if you just like handwriting or maybe even just illustration, but you love flourishing, so come to the Flourish Club to be inspired.
[00:01:47] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that.
I love that. And we'll come on to flourishing it a little bit more. But you spent eight years in Italy, right? Is this sort of where your creative journey began? What was the spark that kicked off the Flourish Club?
[00:02:07] Speaker B: There are several dots in my life where I thought about, okay, I love this, these curves, intertwining and this, whatever it was.
But I never thought about you could learn it. When you, when you're in Italy, you see a lot of flourishing, but you see also very a lot of flourishing everywhere online.
But 10 years ago, this thing called lettering came up and you could actually learn it. And yeah, that was my beginning.
Not to learn flourishing, but to learn the lettering, the letters, and adding some swashes and doing this, I learned more and more about flourishing as well.
The Flourish Club on Instagram was founded in 21, so it's not long ago.
And yeah, here we are now with the Flourish Club, with a website, with an Instagram account, and with a lot to learn about flourishing, because I gathered every bit I could find to create my own learning style, if you want.
[00:03:37] Speaker A: Yeah, that's amazing. And, and so whilst you were in Italy. Were you doing something to do with design or. Or something obviously not necessarily specific to lettering, but is that kind of why you were there?
[00:03:53] Speaker B: No, my work. After school, I started working in the business administration. So no creative work at all. Because my mindset once was, if you want to be a creative, you need to be it right away. So you need to know how to draw or to be creative, having great ideas immediately.
So that was my mindset.
So I started very basic with business administration and worked in marketing. After a couple of years, I thought, no, I don't feel well here, so I need to.
I need to change. And I started working in business administration also in Italy, because that was my entrance to get into the working world in Italy. But after two years of working in business administration, I decided to change and to become creative because something triggered me. I had a half year in Florence and I met an art class from the United States and they talked about art in a nice and interesting way. So I was so inspired by it and I thought, yes, these are my people. So that was my only thought.
But. But again, I had to go back and to work in my area.
But in Italy, when I went to Milan, after two years, I couldn't stand it anymore. So I started small courses at university, like evening courses or night courses. And after a couple of weeks, I began in an advertising agency. From day one, I knew this is where I have to be. Was a small agency, about 20 people. Yeah, they had some international clients, but also some local clients. Five years. Yeah, five years I spent there. And I moved back to Germany to keep working as a graphic designer.
[00:06:09] Speaker A: Yeah, I kind of wanted to dig into that moment where you weren't in that creative mindset.
Tipping over. There's always that moment, right. Where even when we were young, we've done lots of creativity and at some point we kind of lose it or it's kind of talked out of us or we do slip into something else because we feel we should. So we kind of get slightly dragged away from our creative side. So for you, obviously, the advertising agency just moved you on that step further, moved you into an area that was creative, but you could still apply some of your business skills and that background that you already had, but then kind of gave you the scope to work in somewhere creative, which then allowed you to do those night classes and give you that exposure to something.
[00:07:02] Speaker B: Agreed. There were always small steps because even working as a graphic designer, I didn't use much of the pencil, and I'm using it today much more. The pencil learning about lettering. I restarted again using the pencil. It was different. My work as a graphic designer, it was very focused on the software, on layout, on moving elements to the right and to the left, making the logo bigger. But even for working in the creative field, there were a lot of signs. It was never just one. Just to mention, my father used to do some kind of calligraphic work, but just for fun. I think at school they had some sort of subject in the 50s or 60s, but he never learned it. And sometimes he wrote with a pen on paper, and I was just kind of amazed. But it was kind of a different world. What is he doing? How can he do this? These were my only thoughts at that time. But. But maybe it plays a little role as well in my whole journey.
[00:08:16] Speaker A: I think so. And I think, as you mentioned before, there's not necessarily just one spark. There's all these little connecting dots that kind of end up, you know, it's not like you did. You didn't learn it when you should have or you should have done it in this order. It's almost like the order that you do things in leads you to where you are today. And all these little connecting dots kind of add up to your unique style. And talking of styles, so you work with all types of different fonts and lettering and calligraphy styles, but do you have a sort of favorite one that you always go back to? Do you feel.
[00:08:54] Speaker B: Yes. I remember when I started with lettering, I started with all kinds of letters like serif, non serif. But in the end, I fell always back to script letters. Of course, the script letters had these curves, these elegant, smooth curves, thin or thick, elegant or dynamic. No matter what kind of script it was, I can tell the script style is my style. Even if I like to do once in a while a little black ladder to. To mix it with flourishes.
My go to style is always an elegant or dynamic script style.
[00:09:38] Speaker A: Yeah. And I guess that really lends itself to the flourishing styles that you teach. And for me and probably so many other people who may be at various points on their journeys with lettering and calligraphy, flourishing is so often one of the hardest parts of designing lettering, creating beautiful scripts. Where, how or where do you suggest people kind of start with that?
[00:10:04] Speaker B: So, yeah, if I look at me, I started with lettering before I even started to think about to practice flourishing. If you want to learn how to flourish, you need to learn the letters first. Maybe somebody wants to learn, oh yeah, I want to do these decorations.
But it's better to learn first your letters because Learning the letters and learning the ovals and curves is a big advantage for you if you do your spirits and S curves and so on. So if you haven't done any letter work.
Yeah, it's difficult, let's be honest. The flourishes are mostly combined with letters and, and that's what most people want to learn, how to decorate their letters.
So I suggest start with your letters first and then if you have kind of a little foundation, then start with the basic shapes or flourishing and the rest will come.
[00:11:10] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a practice, isn't it? And I think, you know, some of the, your emails, your Instagram, your website, your, the courses that you run, like I've, I've dipped my toes into a few of them and they're so full of incredible kind of eye opening practices that you sort of. It takes a few goes at things to kind of realize how far you need to take the pencil or the kind of flow that you need and the shapes and where you go wrong, it's all these different elements and, and I guess things like pen to paper can come after pencil. Like you were mentioning, like a lot of pencil work. So you're able to kind of rub it out and adjust it, would you say?
[00:12:00] Speaker B: Yeah, you know what, when you start out and you are just passionate and you want to learn it, you don't see all these limitations you might have. When you start your first flourishing, you think, oh, it can't be that difficult, so let's do it. But talking about me, I just say, I've seen some great work on Instagram, on a website. Oh, this looks great.
Okay, I will do it. And then I try to copy it and then I look at my piece and the other piece and why does it look so different?
So, and it's, it's hard to understand, but every single flourish has a certain, a kind of a basic shape which, which is beautiful in our eyes. And you need to know this. It's mostly the ober shape, which is beautiful. And we don't do this at first. We draw circles or wonky ovals or whatever. So pay attention to the very, very details. And then when you copy something and it does not turn out that it should be, do it again. Try to find the very details to see what is really the reason why this looks beautiful in your eyes and this not so. There are reasons and that's what I try to teach. I try to break down every single piece, no matter how complicated it looks, to make it understandable in the eyes of the students to see Ah, that's why he's doing this. And that understanding it doesn't mean you can do it, but understanding it gives you the path where to go to learn it. So that's what I try.
[00:13:56] Speaker A: I love that. And I see, you know, through these conversations there's lots of themes coming up. This similar thread of calligraphy, lettering, flourishing, all of these kind of creative art forms. There's something that appeals to the people who are learning it, doing it, anchoring around this sort of rule based system. Right. There's a structure. It doesn't mean that you can't kind of play with it once you've got that down.
But there's something very comforting in knowing that you're following a set of rules.
Which I feel is such an interesting twist on that creative mindset. Like when you've got that understanding of those rules, you've got the beginnings of something that then evolves into this beautiful flourish letter which really does look incredible.
[00:14:50] Speaker B: It helps a lot because often I hear reactions like, I don't know when to stop my flourishing. My flourishes look like spaghetti. Or you know, like everything you learn, you, you need to have some sort of direction, let's say like this. And if you have the direction within the direction. Yeah. You can try to be creative, but it helps you or it prevents going too far. Yeah, yeah.
[00:15:18] Speaker A: Or not far enough.
I find that with, with calligraphy, when I teach calligraphy, there's, it's like the, the kind of exit strokes or the undertones are always the ones that, for. Not always, but for a lot of beginners they sort of don't. It doesn't feel comfortable going all the way back up to the X height. It doesn't feel comfortable. So they stop short. And then your spacing is all sort of slightly out and the consistency isn't there. So there's an, it's an interesting kind of psychological process of building up that confidence to take that flourishing bigger or to take that letter around here or to. And see what happens. Right. Because your brain is going, no, no, no, no, no. We know what an A looks like. We looks like it's automatic, your handwriting. So you're breaking it down into shapes and trying to unlearn what you know.
[00:16:07] Speaker B: Yeah. There are so many different types of students.
The one who has no curate to do it properly and in a very generous way. And then there are the ones they try out, just already the crazy stuff, but they go too far. So let's find, let's meet in the middle. That's perfect. But in the end, it's always this game of going too far or doing less and then.
Yeah, that's the learning process.
[00:16:36] Speaker A: It is. It's like seasoning your dish right under seasoned is not going to taste nice. Over seasoning is not going to taste like. So when you're designing, do you personally start in pencil? Do you use pen and paper? Do you go to the iPad computer? What are your sort of preferred tools for creating letters?
[00:16:55] Speaker B: Yeah, lettering. I. I restarted doing or creating with. With a pencil and it was a rough start. My first letter was kind of A. I don't know, sans serif, A. After I did this letter, I thought, oh, how is it possible to do a whole Alphabet? I was so tired after one letter.
But.
But it, I kept. I kept going and it, it improved every year. Yeah. So I start with pencil and then I move on to Illustrator. So I have an iPad, but the iPad is mostly used by my kids, so they do fine. But yeah, I'm still going to Illustrator. I don't know, maybe they will come together one day. Illustrator and iPad.
[00:17:49] Speaker A: It's that graphic designer in you. I think once you know, Illustrator or any of the kind of serious. I would call them serious design programs, I think it's great that you've got that. That's, you know, it's something that you can do so much more with the letters. Right. You can vectorize, you can do things that you can't do. And well, certainly procreate has its limitations. So yeah, I think. And everyone struggles with sharing devices at home. I can relate to that.
And then you run courses and workshop and you've built this incredible kind of community with the Flourish Club.
But that began, I think you mentioned, with lots of collaborations with fellow lettering artists.
Can you tell us a little bit more about what you were doing there at the beginning?
[00:18:34] Speaker B: Yeah, so the initial idea. So I had an Instagram account, a personal Instagram account and I shared graphic design, some lettering. Yeah. Sometimes also flourishing or logos. Maybe once in a while some personal stuff. But I wasn't. I was never sure about the identity of this account. Do I. Should I do this a little bit more or less.
I did not have any concept or idea where to move on.
And in 21 there was this idea to create another. A new account about. Yeah, just flourishing. I thought, yeah, try do it.
See what. What happens. Having so many followers and fans about flourishing internationally. So I thought, yeah, why not doing an English account, a pure English account for about flourishing. Because it's a niche and maybe it's it's, it's even better to do it in English to reach more people because many like to watch flourishing and the first days or. Yeah, first two weeks I posted older postings about flourishing.
But there was already so much, so much traction and so much interest that I kept going and it grew so fast.
And I need to address the community, the people who helped promoting it and joining. We did a lot of challenges. We did every Friday. We called it Friendly Friday. I presented over 100 artists on Friday showing their work and asking some questions and getting to know the person behind the account and that was very popular and people loved it.
And the calligrapher from England, Miranda Sanga, she is a, a very passionate copperplate calligrapher. She, she helped a lot to, to grow the, the Flourish Club in, in the first year. It's a, it's a, the, the thing you, you always hear, you can't do it alone, you know, there then you need some help. And if you have a genuine idea, I think help will come somewhere.
[00:21:05] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree, I agree that's, that's really well put actually. I think the communities that support each other and especially in the creative arts, it's a visual form. It's, you know, it's, you know, your, your work is never the same as somebody else's. So sharing that is such a lovely thing to inspire each other and others.
And then so within your, your courses, your workshops, you have, you got some new things going on at the moment, what's happening with events and things?
[00:21:41] Speaker B: Yeah, so I have different courses. I have self study courses and this year I started again the online life courses on Zoom for beginners and for advanced flourishing enthusiast. And yeah, I'm organizing also the Lettering Days in Munich with the great team together in November. It's the seventh year we are doing it and there's always too much to do.
[00:22:15] Speaker A: So what happens? So for those of us who don't know much about Lettering days, what, what happens at these events?
[00:22:23] Speaker B: So the Lettering days is a two day creative conference with different workshops. We have 16 workshops from international teachers, but mostly from Germany, Swiss and Austria. We cover lettering of course, illustration, sketch notes, iPad lettering, and a little bit business for creatives. So this two days event is, I mean every, every in person event is such a big happening because finally you see your, your friends from Instagram you never see, finally you see your preferred artists that you just knew from Instagram. And it's, it's such a big meeting and melting point. And these two days it's just a glimpse.
They go by so fast. But it gives you so much inspiration and so much motivation for everything you do, no matter if you're an advanced creative or just at the beginning. For me, these events were always so important.
[00:23:38] Speaker A: Wherever I went, a good excuse to come over there.
[00:23:43] Speaker B: Yeah. So far it works well and people love to come to Munich and that's.
[00:23:50] Speaker A: Where, as you said, you know, all these different events, whether you're hosting, whether somebody else is hosting, it's where it brings those communities almost to life. Right. You know, you get to meet those people. They're not just on Instagram. It's these pockets and these places where you'll come together and you can meet and talk and share and create.
[00:24:13] Speaker B: Yeah, it's, it's really, it's exciting. And even if you, you know, maybe you follow a friend or a person for years on Instagram and finally you meet the person in real life and it's, it's a difference. Yeah. And it's beautiful.
[00:24:32] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it's lovely. And there's lots of brilliant communities out there. I mean, the typism summit that you've just been part of, I guess is bringing artists together and there's lots of other places like that as well. So it's lovely to see people offering these spaces where you can really learn from experts and people who've been doing it for a really long time at whatever stage you're at.
[00:24:58] Speaker B: Absolutely.
Just finished this event.
I guess even Typism had in the past an in person event in Australia. Of course, even online is such a good experience to learn and to get to know new artists and new other people.
[00:25:21] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it's, it's having a nice balance of both, isn't it? It's whether it's online or, or in person. And out of all the courses and workshops that you've, you've created and done, which has been your kind of favorite one to, to teach or to host.
[00:25:37] Speaker B: For everybody who wants to start or to learn Flourishing, maybe with some experience. My course, the Flourish Delight is my, my best product so far. And within the Flourish Delight, there's also the new guide, the new Flourish Guide I, I created.
In my last 10 years, I created, I guess, four or five different guides and this is the most major and complete guide for all levels. And yes, you can get this guide also separately, but if you do the Flourish Delight, the guide is included. If you prefer a live workshop, yeah, you can do a zoom workshop, which is always a good idea because you get direct feedback. Maybe you have a little bit more experience and you know what to ask and you want to, you want a direct feedback on certain areas, then a zoom workshop is, works quite well.
But if you need to learn more basics and need to do more exercises, I think a self study course like the Flourish Delight or the Flourish online course after that could be a very good idea.
[00:27:02] Speaker A: Well, to, to find out more about Robert, to find out more about all the courses that he offers. It's the Flourish Club, but we will put this in the show notes as well. And obviously people can connect and follow you at the Flourish Club on Instagram, but really all there is to say is a huge, huge thank you for joining me today. I know we've had some, some technical issues, let's say, this morning, so the fact that we're actually speaking to each other is a bit of a miracle. So I'm just really, really grateful that you're here. So thank you for joining me today.
[00:27:39] Speaker B: Yeah, thank you very much also for inviting me and being your guest in your podcast. And I'm honored to be, to be here. And it turned out better than started with our technical challenges, but thanks again.
[00:27:57] Speaker A: Oh, thank you so much, Robert.
Thank you so much for listening. If you're enjoying the podcast, please subscribe, leave a review or share it with a fellow lettering enthusiast. And for all the details to connect with us, check out the show notes. A huge thank you to my producer, Heidi Cullop for ensuring this podcast reached your ears. And finally, to all the guests featured in this series, go check them out.
